Concorde X throttle issue

[quarterback85]

Hello Mr. Dowson:

May I direct your attention to the following thread on the FSLabs forum concerning their new Concorde X and FSUIPC:

http://forums.flightsimlabs.com/index.php?/topic/2653-throttles-blocked-after-shut-downt-autothrottle/

To summarize, there is an issue on Concorde where the engines become disconnected from the user's throttle levers under certain circumstances for users using FSUIPC full version to calibrate their throttle levers. Once this happens there are certain workarounds to get throttle control back, such as issuing a keyboard command to the "virtual flight engineer", which may or may not be practical at certain times, like if the throttles disconnect occurs during the landing flare, etc...The development team is recommending a workaround to avoid this from happening in the first place: Simply don't use FSUIPC throttle calibration.

Well, I would very much like to use FSUIPC throttle calibration, and the team over there has suggested that I bring this issue to your attention. Much of the discussion in the thread I refer you to is on the verge of a flame war, but I would very much appreciate if you could take a look at it. The FSLabs team is working very hard on a Service Pack and this issue is of a lower priority to them, understandably, but I think it would be helpful to get you in on this issue, nonetheless.

Thanks, qb85

[Pete Dowson]

To summarize, there is an issue on Concorde where the engines become disconnected from the user's throttle levers under certain circumstances for users using FSUIPC full version to calibrate their throttle levers.

How does that happen? There are facilities in FSUIPC for applications to disconnect throttles, as well as ailerons, elevators, rudders etc, but these facilities need positive action on the application's part -- writing values to specific offsets.

Before anything else, though, please make sure you are using version FSUIPC 4.60 or later. If you are not, update first then come back if you still have a problem. I cannot support any older versions for FSX.

Also, in your first report in the thread you reference you describe the problem as follows:

When I shut down Autopilot and auto throttle to finish landing on visual approche. I have some trouble. The throttle don't respond and the speed continue as it was selected on autopilot. To have correct throttle, I necessarily have to re-activate autothrottle, to reactivate levers and to cut the autothrottle has new.

There is no other explanation in that thread and no clearer description of the problem, and I'm afraid your description is one I don't understand. Can you explain what the difference is between activating and deactivating the A/T and doing it twice, which you appear to say works? In other words, what does this mean: "re-activate autothrottle, to reactivate levers and to cut the autothrottle has new", as it doesn't make sense to me.

Regards

Pete

[Ray Proudfoot]

quarterback85,

As a beta tester for Concorde-X and a user of Saitek throttles I haven't experienced this particular problem. I'm wondering if it might be related to USB power saving. If the OS doesn't detect any use from a USB connected device for a certain period of time it will put that connection into sleep mode.

Check if you have "Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power" checked for the USB hubs that your throttles are connected to. You can find this as follows:-

Right-click "My Computer" - Manage - Device Manager. Highlight the relevant USB Hub entry and right-click to see Properties. Look at the Power Management tab.

If the option is checked switch it off and see if that solves the problem.

[quarterback85]

Hi guys:

I'll go ahead and cross post this on the Flight Sim Labs forums. I'm using Vista 64, and it apparently does not have a per-hub power management scheme. However, I did go in under Control Panel->Power Options and changed my settings from "Balanced" to "High Performance".

Unlike the Original Poster in the thread I referred you to, I have not experienced this problem during an autothrottle disconnect, but I don't rule it out, and I will experiment with that scenario. I think what the OP is trying to say is that when it comes time to retard the throttles during the landing flare, he switches off the AutoThrottle, and finds that his throttles levers have no effect (thus he can't cut the power). I am working under the assumption that this is one and the same to the problems I have experienced, but I can easily reproduce the throttle disconnect by shutting down the engine and doing an in-flight Relight. I will let you all know within the next day or so as to whether changing the power scheme had any effect.

For FSUIPC, I'm using version 4.60. My throttles are mapped using "send direct to FSUIPC". They are calibrated from the tab, with the filter boxes checked. I am not using any of the "sync" functionality (my response curves are completely linear, but my min and max values are slightly different for each axis, with an appropriate "null" so as not to accidently induce thrust reverse)

Here is a list of my currently connected controllers. I have double checked to make sure that there are NO duplicate mappings or any stupid stuff like that.

1) Saitek Yoke w/attached Saitek Throttle Quad (Profile specific for Concorde-Quadrant X axis=Null, Y axis = Eng1, Z axis = Eng2)

2) Saitek Throttle Quad (For Concorde, Quadrant X axis=Eng3, Y axis = Eng 4, Z axis = Null)

3) Saitek Rudders

4) CH Throttle Quad (levers not assigned to anything for this aircraft)

Thanks for addressing this.

[Pete Dowson]

I'll go ahead and cross post this on the Flight Sim Labs forums. I'm using Vista 64, and it apparently does not have a per-hub power management scheme.

Really? That's odd because both XP 32 and Win 7 64 do. It one of the tabs in the "USB Root Hub" device properties, in the USB section of the Device Manager. I can't believe Microsoft had this in XP and continued it in Windows 7 with a gap for Vista.

For FSUIPC, I'm using version 4.60. My throttles are mapped using "send direct to FSUIPC". They are calibrated from the tab, with the filter boxes checked.

You shouldn't need the filter. That's really quite a drastic smoothing and needs several prior readings to act upon. It was originally put in for some users in Indonesia and rural India where the power supplies were so erratic that the readings from the potentiometers in the axes were varying too much. I'm sure Saitek controls are good enough, and your power supply stable enough, to do without FSUIPC's filtering.

Are you using 4 separate throttles and assigning them individually, or using one or two and mapping them in the calibration page?

And can you explain, please, exactly what it is you meant by "re-activate autothrottle, to reactivate levers and to cut the autothrottle has new", as it still doesn't make sense to me. You appear to have missed this question in my first reply.

Pete

[quarterback85]

USB root hub..duh, thanks Peter. Got it. All of those boxes are currently unchecked. The computer does not have the authority to turn off the power, so we are good to go there.

As far as filtering goes, I must have the most fluttery and jittery throttle quadrants on earth, because I did actually notice a positive effect, but I guess that is probably not relevant.

It looks like you responded to my response and we stepped on each others post. I did not submit the original post over at FSLabs forums, but I think my revised post above should clarify. "re-activate autothrottle, to reactivate levers and to cut the autothrottle has new"----I think what the guy means is that his throttles are completely unresponsive to his levers, and the only way to restore control over the engines at all is to re-activate the autothrottle.

[Pete Dowson]

... I think my revised post above should clarify.

So, I'm still not sure how you ever get your throttles back. Do they stay disconnected until you reload FSX? Do you know who or what is disconnecting them? As I said, there is a facility to do this in FSUIPC, but the Concode X add-on is not using FSUIPC at all.

When they are disconnected, what does the FSUIPC4 log show if you enable axis logging and move the throttles?

Pete

[quarterback85]

To get the throttles back, you have to issue a throttle keyboard command such as F4 (full throttle), and then your levers will work once again and you can override the keyboard command that you just issued. However, The issue of keyboard throttle commands is a bit more complicated in Concorde X because Concorde X also sports a feature called the Virtual Flight Engineer (VFE). Among other things, if you hit Ctrl F5, he will set the throttle to a pre-defined throttle "angle." So basically, what I'm saying, is that there is some extra code there that is unique to Concorde X. Maybe the FSLabs guys could provide you some more information about what it is they are doing.

-I will check the FSUIPC logs, I don't have the information to answer that question at the present time.

A tutorial addendum to the manual of this very complicated aircraft has yet to be issued, so apologies in advance if I appear to not know what I'm talking about in regards to operation of this aircraft.

[Pete Dowson]

To get the throttles back, you have to issue a throttle keyboard command such as F4 (full throttle), and then your levers will work once again and you can override the keyboard command that you just issued.

Hmmm. The keyboard F1 to F4 are by default assigned to Throttle Idle, Throttle Decr, Throttle Incr and Throttle Full respectively. Obviously you could assign (one of) those to button(s), or even, say, 'throttle inc' to a zone on your levers, using the right-hand side of the axis assignments tab.

Do you use FSUIPC's 4 throttles calibration tab for a throttle with reverse zone, and calibrated with such a zone? If you use the "no reverse zone" option, does that make a difference? And does the ThrottleN_Set option at the bottom of the calibration tab make any difference?

I will check the FSUIPC logs, I don't have the information to answer that question at the present time.

It might be a good idea to see what the logs show when the throttles are operating normally and compare them to when they are "disconnected", and also show what happens when you issue whatever keyboard control it takes to get them connected again.

It is definitely sounding more and more a bug in the Concorde X which just happens to manifest itself with the group of FS throttle controls issued by FSUIPC when compared with the normal ones. This is why a test with "no reverse zones" is important -- the controls are different.

Pete

[quarterback85]

I will try to compile some FSUIPC logs with the 2 test cases as you suggest. This might take some time, like maybe later tonight or tommorow.

Reverse thrust: My axes are calibrated using the NO REVERSE THRUST tab checked. I'm sure you already know this, but on the Saitek levers, when you go below the detent position, you are actually sending a button press. So my reversers are actually just a button press with "repeat while button held" enabled.

I have to go back and review what the Throttle_N set option does. I'm rather ignorant when it comes to advanced FSUIPC functionality. I can tell you that I haven't been using it.

[Pete Dowson]

Reverse thrust: My axes are calibrated using the NO REVERSE THRUST tab checked.

In that case it would be interesting to find out if the problem still occurs with the option unchecked. Save a copy of your FSUIPC4.INI file first, because without that option you'll need to re-calibrate. You can actually get the same effect by calibrating with a zero-sized reverse zone -- that's how it was done before I added the checkbox option.

BTW there's no rush as far as I am concerned. This weekend is pretty fully occupied as it is and next week I've a lot to do before disappearing on holiday. If it needs any tweaking in my software it's probably going to have to wait a few weeks. All I'm trying to ascertain at present is what is going on. I've a feeling I'll need FSLabs to loan me a Concorde X if I'm going to solve it for them -- I don't want to buy one as I really would never fly it. Not that I'm against the Concorde, it's just that I have a very-specifically configured 737NG cockpit. Flying anything else in it is almost impossible, and flying on another PC elsewhere just isn't much fun compared with the full hardware cockpit with projected scenery experience! ;-)

Regards

Pete

[quarterback85]

Peter, I'm having some difficulty generating useful information in my log files. I'm asuming that you are looking for continuous streaming data relating to the inputs of the throttles. I can generate log files fine, but no matter what box I check (the axis box obviously), the log files do not include axis data. I can move the throttles up and down, and the engines are responding, but still nothing is written. I can, though totally irrelavent to the issue at hand, generate button presses, weather etc, everything but what we need. I've tried viewing it in real time in the console too, with FSX windowed, and still no streaming axis data, so I'm not sure exactly what I'm doing wrong.

Do I have to fool around with the "offset" stuff on the right hand side of the logging window? If so, then I will need some help with what exactly to put in there to sample the correct data, including whether you would like the data in Hex, or Signed 32 bit, or whatever. I must admit, this is an area of FSUIPC I have generally tried to avoid, and thus am totally ignorant as to what I'm doing.

Thanks for helping me out on this.

P.S. Paul Smith suspects that this throttle anomaly only occurs in Windows 7. He is wrong. I am on Vista 64.

[Pete Dowson]

Peter, I'm having some difficulty generating useful information in my log files. I'm asuming that you are looking for continuous streaming data relating to the inputs of the throttles. I can generate log files fine, but no matter what box I check (the axis box obviously), the log files do not include axis data. I can move the throttles up and down, and the engines are responding, but still nothing is written. I can, though totally irrelavent to the issue at hand, generate button presses, weather etc, everything but what we need. I've tried viewing it in real time in the console too, with FSX windowed, and still no streaming axis data, so I'm not sure exactly what I'm doing wrong.

Show me a section of the Log file, from the very start. It will tell me what log options you have selected. Also please paste in your FSUIPC4.INI file so I can see what you are setting on the axes.

Do I have to fool around with the "offset" stuff on the right hand side of the logging window?

No.

P.S. Paul Smith begin_of_the_skype_highlighting     end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting     end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting     end_of_the_skype_highlighting suspects that this throttle anomaly only occurs in Windows 7. He is wrong. I am on Vista 64.

Paul has also told me that the problem is nothing whatsoever to do with the AutoThrottle. He is saying that even when flying the Concorde X manually, merely reducing the throttles to idle will cause them to "disconnect". This is if FSUIPC is calibrating the throttles -- it doesn't matter where they are assigned, he says, Is this what you see too? So, something in the Concorde sees zero on a throttle axis and somehow disconnects it? Weird! I am astounded that of presumably hundreds if not thousands of users, by now, only two or three of you have such an amazingly drastic problem!

Have you yet tried without the "no reverse zone" option set, or with the ThrottleN_Set option unchecked?

Anyway, I've had a long discussion with Paul. Unfortunately he doesn't know anything about what the Concorde is doing internally, so I think he'll be discussing it further with the programmers. I don't really see there being any resolution without their involvement because obviously it is something quite peculiar their code is doing. If I am to help they'll have to supply me with a Concorde in any case, and I'm not going to be able to do anything now till about May 10th or later.

Regards

Pete

[quarterback85]

Hi,

Well, I don't know what it could possibly be that is keeping me from generating the Axis streams; The Logging screen and its options are pretty straight forward. The options I have checked are: "Button and Key Operations", "Events", and of course "Axis Controls".

Here is a sample of what I'm getting when moving the throttles up and down with live engines (which are responding in the sim). I took the liberty of pushing a button or two (rotor brake with parameter which controls VOR OBI 1) just to prove that the log feed is indeed live. Here it is:

********* FSUIPC4, Version 4.60a by Pete Dowson *********

Reading options from "C:\Games\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\Modules\FSUIPC4.ini"

Trying to connect to SimConnect Acc/SP2 Oct07 ...

User Name="-OMITTED-"

User Addr="-OMITTED-"

FSUIPC4 Key is provided

WideFS7 Key is provided

Running inside FSX on Windows Vista (using SimConnect Acc/SP2 Oct07)

Module base=61000000

Wind smoothing fix is fully installed

DebugStatus=255

47 System time = 24/04/2010 18:28:33

109 FLT UNC path = "\\HOMEPC\Flight Simulator X Files\"

109 FS UNC path = "\\HOMEPC\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\"

343 LogOptions=00000000 00000001

343 SimConnect_Open succeeded: waiting to check version okay

1498 Running in "Microsoft Flight Simulator X", Version: 10.0.61637.0 (SimConnect: 10.0.61259.0)

1498 Initialising SimConnect data requests now

1498 FSUIPC Menu entry added

1529 \\HOMEPC\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\FLIGHTS\OTHER\FLTSIM.FLT

1529 \\HOMEPC\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\SimObjects\Airplanes\Aircreation_582SL\Aircreation_582SL.AIR

21138 \\HOMEPC\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\SimObjects\Airplanes\FSLabs_BAe-Concorde\Concorde.AIR

35553 System time = 24/04/2010 18:29:08, Simulator time = 02:28:34 (01:28Z)

35553 Aircraft="Concorde (Capt) BAUF OAF"

96237 Advanced Weather Interface Enabled

257324 Sim stopped: average frame rate for last 164 secs = 34.3 fps

272581 Ready Flags: Ready-To-Fly=Y, In Menu=Y, In Dlg=Y

319412 LogOptions changed, now 70000000 00000011

319412 [buttons] now profile-specific:

319412 0=R2,2,C66587,71107

319412 1=R2,3,C66587,71108

319412 2=R2,4,C66587,71114

319412 3=R2,5,C66587,71115

319412 4=R2,6,C66587,71117

319412 9=P3,2,C66362,0

319412 10=R2,7,C66587,71116

319412 11=R2,8,C66587,71140

319412 12=R2,9,C66587,71141

321955 Ready Flags: Ready-To-Fly=Y, In Menu=N, In Dlg=N

389800 Button changed: bRef=0, Joy=2, Btn=4, Pressed

389800 [buttons.Concorde (Capt) BAUF OAF] 2=R2,4,C66587,71114

389800 Repeating flag set: bRef=0, Joy=2, Btn=4 (RepeatDelayCtr=1)

389800 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66587, Param=71114

389800 *** EVENT: Cntrl= 66587 (0x0001041b), Param= 71114 (0x000115ca) ROTOR_BRAKE

389800 Button held, flags=X05, repeat set: bRef=0, Joy=2, Btn=4, (Result 4)

389800 [buttons.Concorde (Capt) BAUF OAF] 2=R2,4,C66587,71114

389847 Button held, flags=X05, repeat set: bRef=0, Joy=2, Btn=4, (RepeatOk sets 2)

389847 [buttons.Concorde (Capt) BAUF OAF] 2=R2,4,C66587,71114

389847 Repeating flag set: bRef=0, Joy=2, Btn=4 (RepeatDelayCtr=2)

389909 Button changed: bRef=0, Joy=2, Btn=4, Released

404901 Ready Flags: Ready-To-Fly=Y, In Menu=Y, In Dlg=Y

404901 Sim stopped: average frame rate for last 82 secs = 19.9 fps

417662 LogOptions changed, now 00000000 00000001

441889 Weather Mode now = Theme

441935 \\HOMEPC\FSX\Previous flight.FLT

468970 System time = 24/04/2010 18:36:22, Simulator time = 02:32:27 (01:32Z)

468970 *** FSUIPC log file being closed

Average frame rate for running time of 263 secs = 28.7 fps

Memory managed: 116 Allocs, 115 Freed

********* FSUIPC Log file closed ***********

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here also is my Config file. Please note that the Throttle quadrant with engines 1 and 2 is organic with the Saitek Yoke, and therefore not listed as separate, but that I indeed have 2 Saitek Yokes sitting side by side in addition to a CH throttle quadrant, whose buttons, but not levers, are mapped for this Concorde.

[General]

UpdatedByVersion=4600

History=V0VN8OYMB6A0QW32Q4WHT

MouseWheelTrim=Yes

MouseWheelTrimSpeed=1

JoystickTimeout=20

PollGFTQ6=Yes

BlankDisplays=No

FixControlAccel=Yes

FixMachSpeedBug=Yes

VisibilityOptions=No

OneCloudLayer=No

CloudTurbulence=No

CloudIcing=No

GenerateCirrus=No

SuppressCloudTurbulence=No

MaxIce=-4

MinIce=-4

UpperWindGusts=No

SuppressWindTurbulence=No

SuppressWindVariance=No

WindTurbulence=No

TurbulenceRate=1.0,5.0

TurbulenceDivisor=20,20,40,40

SuppressAllGusts=No

MaxSurfaceWind=0

WindLimitLevel=200

WindDiscardLevel=400

WindAjustAltitude=No

WindAjustAltitudeBy=2000

SmoothBySimTime=No

WindSmoothing=Yes

WindSmoothness=2

WindSmoothAirborneOnly=No

PressureSmoothness=20

TemperatureSmoothness=100

DisconnTrimForAP=No

ZeroElevForAPAlt=No

ThrottleSyncAll=No

WhiteMessages=No

ShowPMcontrols=No

SpoilerIncrement=512

MagicBattery=No

RudderSpikeRemoval=Yes

ElevatorSpikeRemoval=Yes

AileronSpikeRemoval=Yes

ReversedElevatorTrim=No

ClockSync=No

ClockSyncMins=5

ClearWeatherDynamics=No

OwnWeatherChanges=No

TimeForSelect=4

LoadFlightMenu=No

LoadPlanMenu=No

PauseAfterCrash=No

BrakeReleaseThreshold=75

SaveDataWithFlights=No

ZapSound=firework

ShortAircraftNameOk=No

UseProfiles=Yes

TCASid=Flight

TCASrange=40

AxisCalibration=No

DirectAxesToCalibs=No

ShowMultilineWindow=Yes

SuppressSingleline=No

SuppressMultilineFS=No

AxisIntercepts=No

DontResetAxes=No

WeatherReadFactor=2

WeatherRewriteSeconds=1

CustomWeatherModify=No

SimConnectStallTime=1

Console=No

ConsoleWindow=46,46,723,403

[JoyNames]

AutoAssignLetters=No

0=Saitek Pro Flight Yoke

0.GUID={E5218A90-FD82-11DE-8002-444553540000}

1=Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals

1.GUID={2D98B820-FD83-11DE-8004-444553540000}

3=Saitek Pro Flight Quadrant

3.GUID={4C472E50-FD83-11DE-8005-444553540000}

2=CH THROTTLE QUADRANT

2.GUID={CCC4B1B0-337F-11DF-8001-444553540000}

[buttons]

ButtonRepeat=20,10

4=P0,1,K116,8

5=P3,4,C65759,0

6=P3,5,C65758,0

7=P3,2,C66243,0

8=P3,3,C66244,0

9=R2,0,C65894,0

10=R2,1,C65895,0

11=R2,2,C65879,0

12=R2,3,C65880,0

13=R2,4,C65663,0

14=R2,5,C65662,0

15=P2,10,C65751,0

17=P2,11,C65750,0

18=R0,14,C66584,0

19=R0,15,C66583,0

20=R2,6,C65665,0

21=R2,7,C65664,0

22=R2,8,C65892,0

23=R2,9,C65893,0

24=R0,3,C65615,0

25=R0,2,C65607,0

26=R0,21,C65966,0

27=R0,22,C65971,0

28=R3,6,C65976,0

29=R3,7,C65981,0

30=P0,0,K118,8

[AutoSave]

AutoSaveEnabled=No

[GPSout]

GPSoutEnabled=No

[GPSout2]

GPSoutEnabled=No

[WideServer]

WideFSenabled=No

AdvertiseService=1

Port=8002

Port2=9002

[Axes]

0=0U,256,D,9,0,0,0

1=0V,256,D,10,0,0,0

2=1X,256,D,7,0,0,0

3=1Y,256,D,8,0,0,0

4=3X,256,D,11,0,0,0

5=3Y,256,D,12,0,0,0

[JoystickCalibration]

AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes

ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes

ExcludeMixtureSet=No

ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes

SepRevsJetsOnly=No

ApplyHeloTrim=No

UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No

FlapsSetControl=0

FlapDetents=No

ReverserControl=66292

Reverser1Control=66422

Reverser2Control=66425

Reverser3Control=66428

Reverser4Control=66431

MaxThrottleForReverser=256

AileronTrimControl=66731

RudderTrimControl=66732

CowlFlaps1Control=66162

CowlFlaps2Control=66163

CowlFlaps3Control=66164

CowlFlaps4Control=66165

SteeringTillerControl=0

MaxSteerSpeed=60

LeftBrake=-16380,13056/24

RightBrake=-16380,13312/24

Flaps=-12093,13696/16

Throttle1=-14043,-512,512,16256/40

Throttle2=-14173,-512,512,16383/40

Throttle3=-14953,-512,512,16128/40

Throttle4=-15603,-512,512,16128/40

Spoilers=-16380,16380/16

SyncSlopeThrottle2=33/32,45/45,52/52,60/59,66/67,73/72,78/77,81/81,86/86,92/95,96/97,113/115,121/120,127/128

SyncSlopeThrottle3=27/30,34/32,42/45,54/52,68/67,71/72,76/77,83/81,92/95,97/97,112/115,120/120,127/128

SyncSlopeThrottle4=31/30,37/32,46/45,56/52,70/67,73/72,78/77,85/81,93/95,98/97,113/115,119/120,127/128

CowlFlaps1=-11703,14720

MapCowl1to1234=Yes

MapCowl12to123=Yes

MapCowl12to34=Yes

[Profile.B377]

1=Boeing Stratocruiser, PAN AM

2=Boeing Stratocruiser, AOA

[Axes.B377]

0=0Z,256,F,66291,0,0,0

1=0U,256,D,9,0,0,0

2=0V,256,D,10,0,0,0

3=1X,256,D,7,0,0,0

4=1Y,256,D,8,0,0,0

5=2X,256,D,6,0,0,0

6=2Y,256,D,29,0,0,0

7=2R,256,D,23,0,0,0

8=3X,256,D,11,0,0,0

9=3Y,256,D,12,0,0,0

[Profile.Twin1]

1=RealAir Beech Duke N820MH

2=RealAir Beech Duke N4029S

3=RealAir Beech Duke N2060V

4=Piper PA31T1 Cheyenne I N819SW

[Axes.Twin1]

0=0Z,256,D,9,0,0,0

1=0U,256,D,10,0,0,0

2=0V,256,D,17,0,0,0

3=1X,256,D,7,0,0,0

4=1Y,256,D,8,0,0,0

5=2X,256

6=2X,B,-12353,13696,66079,0

7=2X,B,-16384,-14823,66080,0

8=3X,256,D,18,0,0,0

9=3Y,256,D,13,0,0,0

10=3Z,256,D,14,0,0,0

[buttons.Twin1]

0=P3,4,C65759,0

1=P3,5,C65758,0

2=P3,2,C66243,0

3=P3,3,C66244,0

4=R0,20,C65966,0

5=R0,21,C65971,0

[JoystickCalibration.Twin1]

AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes

ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes

ExcludeMixtureSet=No

ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes

SepRevsJetsOnly=No

ApplyHeloTrim=No

UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No

MapCowl1to1234=Yes

MapCowl12to123=Yes

MapCowl12to34=Yes

FlapsSetControl=0

FlapDetents=No

ReverserControl=66292

Reverser1Control=66422

Reverser2Control=66425

Reverser3Control=66428

Reverser4Control=66431

MaxThrottleForReverser=256

AileronTrimControl=66731

RudderTrimControl=66732

CowlFlaps1Control=66162

CowlFlaps2Control=66163

CowlFlaps3Control=66164

CowlFlaps4Control=66165

SteeringTillerControl=0

MaxSteerSpeed=60

LeftBrake=-16380,13056/24

RightBrake=-16380,13312/24

Throttle1=-15342,-512,512,14720/40

Throttle2=-15082,8320,8320,14976/40

Mixture1=-16383,8192,8192,16383/40

Mixture2=-16383,8192,8192,16383/40

Spoilers=-16380,16380/16

Flaps=-12093,13696/16

CowlFlaps1=-11703,14720

PropPitch1=-12353,0,512,16128/40

PropPitch2=-12353,0,512,16256/40

[Profile.Concorde]

1=Concorde (Capt) BAUF OAF

2=Concorde (Capt) AF FB

[buttons.Concorde]

0=R2,2,C66587,71107

1=R2,3,C66587,71108

2=R2,4,C66587,71114

3=R2,5,C66587,71115

4=R2,6,C66587,71117

6=P0,16,C66359,0

7=P0,18,C66360,0

8=P3,0,C66361,0

9=P3,2,C66362,0

10=R2,7,C66587,71116

11=R2,8,C66587,71140

12=R2,9,C66587,71141

[JoystickCalibration.Concorde]

AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes

ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes

ExcludeMixtureSet=No

ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes

SepRevsJetsOnly=No

ApplyHeloTrim=No

UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No

MapCowl1to1234=Yes

MapCowl12to123=Yes

MapCowl12to34=Yes

FlapsSetControl=0

FlapDetents=No

ReverserControl=66292

Reverser1Control=66422

Reverser2Control=66425

Reverser3Control=66428

Reverser4Control=66431

MaxThrottleForReverser=256

AileronTrimControl=66731

RudderTrimControl=66732

CowlFlaps1Control=66162

CowlFlaps2Control=66163

CowlFlaps3Control=66164

CowlFlaps4Control=66165

SteeringTillerControl=0

MaxSteerSpeed=60

LeftBrake=-16380,13056/24

RightBrake=-16380,13312/24

Spoilers=-16380,16380/16

Flaps=-12093,13696/16

CowlFlaps1=-11703,14720

Throttle1=-13912,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle2=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle3=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle4=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

[Axes.Concorde]

0=0U,256,D,9,0,0,0

1=0V,256,D,10,0,0,0

2=1X,256,D,7,0,0,0

3=1Y,256,D,8,0,0,0

4=3X,256,D,11,0,0,0

5=3Y,256,D,12,0,0,0

[Profile.Boeing4engineJet]

1=PMDG - 747-400 GE CF6 Engines

2=PMDG747-400F Atlas Air

3=PMDG747-400 UNITED AIRLINES Classic

4=PMDG747-400F DHL

5=PMDG747-400 VIRGIN ATLANTIC AIRWAYS Penelope

[Axes.Boeing4engineJet]

0=0Z,256,D,22,0,0,0

1=0U,256,D,9,0,0,0

2=0V,256,D,10,0,0,0

3=1X,256,D,7,0,0,0

4=1Y,256,D,8,0,0,0

5=3X,256,D,11,0,0,0

6=3Y,256,D,12,0,0,0

7=3Z,256,D,23,0,0,0

[JoystickCalibration.Boeing4engineJet]

AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes

ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes

ExcludeMixtureSet=No

ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes

SepRevsJetsOnly=No

ApplyHeloTrim=No

UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No

MapCowl1to1234=Yes

MapCowl12to123=Yes

MapCowl12to34=Yes

FlapsSetControl=0

FlapDetents=No

ReverserControl=66292

Reverser1Control=66422

Reverser2Control=66425

Reverser3Control=66428

Reverser4Control=66431

MaxThrottleForReverser=256

AileronTrimControl=66731

RudderTrimControl=66732

CowlFlaps1Control=66162

CowlFlaps2Control=66163

CowlFlaps3Control=66164

CowlFlaps4Control=66165

SteeringTillerControl=0

MaxSteerSpeed=60

LeftBrake=-16380,13056/24

RightBrake=-16380,13312/24

Throttle1=-13912,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle2=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle3=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle4=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Flaps=-12093,13696/16

CowlFlaps1=-11703,14720

Spoilers=-16384,16128/24

[buttons.Boeing4engineJet]

0=R0,21,C65966,0

1=R0,22,C65971,0

2=R3,6,C65976,0

3=R3,7,C65981,0

4=R2,8,K85,8

5=R2,9,K85,9

6=R2,10,K84,9

7=R2,11,K84,11

8=P0,14,K71,9

9=P0,15,K71,11

10=R2,0,K85,10

11=R2,1,K85,11

12=R2,2,K81,10

13=R2,3,K81,11

[JoystickCalibration.B377]

AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes

ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes

ExcludeMixtureSet=No

ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes

SepRevsJetsOnly=No

ApplyHeloTrim=No

UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No

MapCowl1to1234=Yes

MapCowl12to123=Yes

MapCowl12to34=Yes

FlapsSetControl=0

FlapDetents=No

ReverserControl=66292

Reverser1Control=66422

Reverser2Control=66425

Reverser3Control=66428

Reverser4Control=66431

MaxThrottleForReverser=256

AileronTrimControl=66731

RudderTrimControl=66732

CowlFlaps1Control=66162

CowlFlaps2Control=66163

CowlFlaps3Control=66164

CowlFlaps4Control=66165

SteeringTillerControl=0

MaxSteerSpeed=60

LeftBrake=-16380,13056/24

RightBrake=-16380,13312/24

Throttle1=-13912,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle2=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle3=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle4=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Spoilers=-16380,16380/16

Flaps=-12093,13696/16

CowlFlaps1=-11703,14720

[Profile.MD80]

1=MD80

2=Super 80 Professional - N873GA

[Axes.MD80]

0=0Z,256,D,22,0,0,0

1=0U,256,D,9,0,0,0

2=0V,256,D,10,0,0,0

3=1X,256,D,7,0,0,0

4=1Y,256,D,8,0,0,0

5=3Z,256,D,23,0,0,0

[JoystickCalibration.MD80]

AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes

ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes

ExcludeMixtureSet=No

ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes

SepRevsJetsOnly=No

ApplyHeloTrim=No

UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No

MapCowl1to1234=Yes

MapCowl12to123=Yes

MapCowl12to34=Yes

FlapsSetControl=0

FlapDetents=No

ReverserControl=66292

Reverser1Control=66422

Reverser2Control=66425

Reverser3Control=66428

Reverser4Control=66431

MaxThrottleForReverser=256

AileronTrimControl=66731

RudderTrimControl=66732

CowlFlaps1Control=66162

CowlFlaps2Control=66163

CowlFlaps3Control=66164

CowlFlaps4Control=66165

SteeringTillerControl=0

MaxSteerSpeed=60

LeftBrake=-16380,13056/24

RightBrake=-16380,13312/24

Throttle1=-13912,-512,512,16000/40

Throttle2=-14042,-512,512,16000/40

Flaps=-12093,13696/16

CowlFlaps1=-11703,14720

Spoilers=-16384,16128/24

[buttons.MD80]

0=P3,4,C65759,0

1=P3,5,C65758,0

2=P3,2,C66243,0

3=P3,3,C66244,0

4=R0,20,C65966,0

5=R0,21,C65966,0

6=R0,22,C65971,0

7=R2,4,C65663,0

8=R2,5,C65662,0

9=R2,2,C66709,0

10=R2,3,C65880,0

11=R2,10,C65896,0

12=R2,11,C65897,0

[Keys]

1=70,8,66237,0

[Monitor]

Display=9

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, I'll answer some of your additional questions once I get the logging working as it should, but I will address one issue. When reporting issues such as these I have been accustomed to hearing that "only 1 or 2 user" are having this problem. That could be true, but then again here is my theory. I have flown a plane or two in FlightSim and this problem, when it happens, looks a heckuva lot like an engine flameout. When I first saw it, that is exactly what I thought, and my first post on this matter, on the FSLABs forums concerned a problem RELIGHTING the engines after a flameout. Only by accident did I discover that the engines were running at Idle the whole time and that when I hit F4, I could regain control of them. I will go further and say that even when the engine ACTUALLY flames out, and the user successfully relights it, the new user may assume that his relight has been unsucsessful since this is one of several cases in which the problem occurs. The Concorde is new, and people are still learning how to use this very complex plane. I'm sure when people realize that what they are seeing isn't simply new-user error, there will be more reports of this.

[Pete Dowson]

Well, I don't know what it could possibly be that is keeping me from generating the Axis streams

I haven't checked, but I don't think you get normal axis logging from axes assigned "direct" in FSUIPC. This is really why I wanted you to try the normal assignment to the FS controls. You can still do this in FSUIPC, you don't have to re-enable them in FS, and your calibrations should still apply just the same.

I think there is a way to intercept and see the "direct to calibration" values, but I'd need to delve a little more into my code.

[LATER]

Before loading FSX, edit the FSUIPC4.INI file and add

Debug=Please

to the [General] section. Then, in FSX and FSUIPC Logging options, edit the "Extras" edit box to read 8.

Sorry for misleading you earlier. The "direct to calibration" doesn't use FS controls, so the control event logging doesn't see them.

Do you find the throttles disconnecting just by bringing them to idle, with no A/T involvement, just as Paul Smith begin_of_the_skype_highlighting     end_of_the_skype_highlighting states?

Regards

Pete

[quarterback85]

Here are 6 generated test cases. I did what you said above and I -hope- that this is the data you need. I'm hoping that I didn't mix up my files with the wrong test case information. There is always that possibility, but I think everything is okay. Not every possible test that configuration that you have suggested is there, but the circumstances under which the problems can be reproduced are pretty englightening. Paul is right that this problem seems to be one of bringing the throttle to idle, not one that has to do with the Autothrottle, but it is interesting that this doesn't happen on the ground. Anyway, enjoy.

For_PDowson.zip

[quarterback85]

UPDATE TO ABOVE. I discovered a cut-and-paste error in the readme that I uploaded to you. For test case 3, gradual pullback to idle, it should read:

-------------------------

TEST CASE 3: Throttles gently brought to full idle approx 10 seconds after AutoThrottle disconnect

The plane is flying on Autopilot, HDG Hold, Alt Hold, with Autothrottle 1 in AIRSPEED ACQ for 250 knots. The aircraft has attained this speed and throttles are stable. FSUIPC logging begins. AT1 is disconnected. Count of 10 seconds. Saitek throttle levers brought -slowly- to idle.

RESULT: None of the throttles became unresponsive this time. I'm not drawing any conclusions about it though.

--------------------------------

Sorry for my sloppiness, and I hope I haven't screwed anything else up.

[Pete Dowson]

Here are 6 generated test cases. I did what you said above and I -hope- that this is the data you need. I'm hoping that I didn't mix up my files with the wrong test case information. There is always that possibility, but I think everything is okay. Not every possible test that configuration that you have suggested is there, but the circumstances under which the problems can be reproduced are pretty englightening. Paul is right that this problem seems to be one of bringing the throttle to idle, not one that has to do with the Autothrottle, but it is interesting that this doesn't happen on the ground. Anyway, enjoy.

Not sure when I can look at this seriously -- I'm hoping the Concorde X folks will have something to say in any case, because it is obviously 100% tied up with whatever they are doing. Hopefully there will be something from them by the time I get back May 5th or later.

However, some questions for you still:

1. In the ZIP there are logs numbered 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 9, and a ReadMe describing "test cases" 1 to 6. Is log 9 mis-named? If so it seems odd because time-stamp-wise it falls between 6 and 2, which, time-wise appears to be last.

2. Have you yet done any testing with the axes assigned to the FS controls (still with your calibration) instead of "direct to FSUIPC calibration"? This is most important as the routing of the controls then is completely different!

Note that there are two different sets of FS controls you can assign to in the drop-down: AXIS THROTTLEn SET controls and THROTTLEn SET controls. It would be useful to test both -- but for the latter you MUST uncheck the "exclude ThrottleN Set" option on the 4 throttles page.

I have asked for you to try the calibration without the "no reverse zone" checked, as again this makes a difference to handling. Have you done that yet?

[LATER]

I've just had a brief glance at a couple of the Log files. you still have Filtering on! I thought I asked you to turn that off, at least for testing?

Unfortunately the logs aren't really very informative, because the Filter option stops the controls being sent by the calibration routine. Filtered controls have to handled asynchronously LATER, using a routine which samples a number of values and takes a moving average. I'd need to add completely different logging facilities to see inside that.

Apart from that, the logs seem to show everything in FSUIPC working fine. Assuming the filtering is doing what it normally does, I would say that the non-operation of the throttles is being caused AFTER FSUIPC has finished with them -- back in the Concorde I presume.

Anyway, please disable the Filter option before any further testing with logging.

Regards

Pete

[quarterback85]

Pete,

I think you are wrong about the time stamps. Each test, 1 through 6 has a later time stamp then the next. As far as the missing "7" and "8", it is because those were false starts that I didn't include in the upload. I just double checked, and I'm not sure how how you are getting that.

Like I said before, not every possible situation that you want to see is there. When the Real World grants me more time, I intend to do these as well.

As far as filtering goes, the only thing you said about this is that it was written for people in India and that it shouldn't be "necessary". I guess I'll have to rerun those again.

[Pete Dowson]

I think you are wrong about the time stamps. Each test, 1 through 6 has a later time stamp then the next.

No. The problem was I was assuming you'd named the logs according to the test case! That's why I say there was no number 1, and a number 9 instead. I now see that you numbered them internally, not by using the filename.

As far as the missing "7" and "8", it is because those were false starts that I didn't include in the upload. I just double checked, and I'm not sure how how you are getting that.

Do you see the filenames in the ZIP? That's how!

Like I said before, not every possible situation that you want to see is there. When the Real World grants me more time, I intend to do these as well.

As I said (appended to the above), with Filtering on I don't think these will be useful. Sorry.

Pete

[quarterback85]

Okay, not to get defensive, but WHAT about these log names are confusing??

case1_FSUIPC4.2

case2_FSUIPC4.3

case3_FSUIPC4.4

case4_FSUIPC4.5

case5_FSUIPC4.6

case6_FSUIPC4.9

Why do you think I added "caseN_" to the begginning of the filenames?

I'll rerun the darned test cases again, okay. You DID NOT make that clear that filtering should be off.

Look, if everybody is going to treat me like an arse regarding this issue, then I'm not sure what in the heck I'm doing this for. The reality is, is that the FSLabs testers and developers don't think this is much of an issue, and apparently the only one who could care less is me, who at the end of the day, is merely an end-user. I got flamed over there by some guy presumably using a single axis throttle on top of his CH yoke, who couldn't even understand why I would want to use FSUIPC calibration in the first place!

I need to take a break from this, before I turn into the incredible Hulk. I'll give you some more logs later.

[quarterback85]

Here is a redo of the the tests, this time 8 logs, including with Filtering OFF for all, and also including tests of "Send FSX as normal axis" and Reverse Zones of size 0. Please DO NOT pay attention to whatever time stamps inside the files, as this time around, they were generated out of sequence over more than one session. The names, including the number after the period were changed so that there should be absolutely no confusion or difficulty correlating them with the test descriptions.

Thanks for looking into this when you get a chance, even if that is after your holiday. I am somewhat intrigued by test cases 7 and 8.

Redo_Dowson.zip

[Pete Dowson]

Why do you think I added "caseN_" to the begginning of the filenames?

Ah, humble apologies! sorry, i didn't see that part of the filename. My eye was only drawn to the numbers at the end. Severe tunnel vision is the reason I don't get out much and why I never got my pilot's license. It's the main symptom of my increasingly severe Retinitis Pigmentosa. Less and less vision each year. I must remember to scan more! :-(

I'll rerun the darned test cases again, okay. You DID NOT make that clear that filtering should be off.

Sorry if it wasn't clear, though the whole sorry episode is mixed up with different things. I'm currently doubting that any logging will tell me anything useful because it certainly looks as if the whole business is contained in Concorde X code.

Look, if everybody is going to treat me like an arse regarding this issue, then I'm not sure what in the heck I'm doing this for.

Okay. That's enough. I'm not coming back to this thread.

I'll give you some more logs later.

I'll look at them, but if anything needs sorting out I'll do it with FSLabs. No need for us to trade insults any more.

Pete

[Ray Proudfoot]

Hi Pete,

I've reproduced this problem but I have no idea which bit of software is causing it. I disengaged AT1 whilst the AP is on and retracted the 4 throttle levers back to idle. Pushing them forward does not result in the engines spooling up.

I don't have filtering enabled. I have posted this in the FS Labs ConcordeX Forum too.

I know you don't have much spare time in the next few weeks so this is just to confirm quarterback's problem is reproducable.

[Pete Dowson]

I know you don't have much spare time in the next few weeks so this is just to confirm quarterback's problem is reproducable.

Thanks. The logs I have shows there's no difference in FSUIPC's actions. Basically, if it is calibrating, it either intercepts the throttle controls (if the FS controls are being used), or, of course, gets them directly if that method is selected, works out the correct calibrated value, and sends them to SimConnect using the normal SimConnect event system.

Of course, in order to avoid a never-ending loop, it intercepts the controls at a high level, and sends them to SimConnect at a lower level -- otherwise it would receive copies of the controls it just send and end up in a tight loop.

Since there's nothing different going on in FSUIPC (as really I expected -- after all, to FSUIPC, zero for "idle" is not a special value, it's just another on the spectrum of values) I won't be able to help anyone with this until FSLabs look at it. Even if they supplied me with a ConcordeX to try I'm not really willing to dive into their code to see what they are doing. There's obviously some sort of test they are doing, with action following, because the throttles work normally on the ground, and normally in the air UNTIL reduced to idle (or A/T connected then disconnected). For some reason they seem to be trapping and discarding the lower-level SimConnect events being sent, but only after one of those things occurs, and only in the air!

It is so specific, and in such specific conditions, that their programmers must surely be able to determine what is going on very easily, and thence fix it.

I'm copying this to Paul Smith and Lefteris.

Regards

Pete