MakeRwys Closed Runways / Short Runways

[RJP]

Hi,

I've recently created a tool in Excel, using a table of ICAO ID, City, Region, Lat / Lon to produce a map of airports, coloured differently for those I've visited and those I haven't yet visited. The last logged airfield is identified along with the distance from that to each other airfield.

I decided to add some functionality which would require other data such as runway surface, runway length (& ideally runway width, ILS provision etc).  In trying to find that data I came across MakeRwys which seems to provide just what I need.

I am having an issue though......... listing closed runways. Some airports in FSX in The Bahamas (just the area I'm looking at initially, there may be others) have only closed runways.  An example being MYZ2 (Cape Eleuthera).  I'd like to include closed runways in what I'm doing, the 'ClosedLanding' and 'ClosedTakeoff' fields in Runways.xml suggests that MakeRwys has the ability to list where either is 'TRUE'.  Have a missed a command line switch to include them? Those fields are always only populated with 'FALSE'.

I understand the need for the minimum runway length field, however, on the offchance that closed runways were listed with 0 length I set the switch to />0 (i.e. "makerwys />0").  The shortest runway in the results is 1503, should that be the case? (default FSX scenery library)

Thanks and many thanks in advance for any advice

Richard

 

 

[Pete Dowson]

1 hour ago, RJP said:

Some airports in FSX in The Bahamas (just the area I'm looking at initially, there may be others) have only closed runways.  An example being MYZ2 (Cape Eleuthera).

Actually, I've just found another -- VHHX.

I think the reason is that both of those have no runway "start" positions -- i.e. no entries in FS's runway list in the World - Go to airport menu. Certainly those with runway start positions (defined thresholds) do get correct CL and CT labels in the runways.csv file where appropriate, and TRUE in the fields in the XML.

Those airports with no threshold positions listed are actually excluded from all of the files except the XML one, where I think they are only there by omission on my part -- I forgot to exclude them! The files are supposed to list only usable airports, ones where the programs which use them can actually direct aircraft to and from (mainly ATC programs).

Evidently, for the ones included (in error I think) in the XML file, I bypassed the check on the open / close flagging. I could look at that and maybe fix it. It won't be for a few days though.

2 hours ago, RJP said:

I understand the need for the minimum runway length field, however, on the offchance that closed runways were listed with 0 length I set the switch to />0 (i.e. "makerwys />0").  The shortest runway in the results is 1503, should that be the case? (default FSX scenery library)

No, closed runways won't have zero length, but a lot of add-on sceneries use what are called "ghost" runways, which are not displayed and have short lengths and often narrow widths. One I saw recently was 9 feet x 4 feet! I'm not sure why they do this -- something to do with dealing with different AI traffic patterns I think.

I'm afraid I've no idea what the shortest runway length is in the default FS scenery. Why don't you try making one shorter (using an AFD program like Airport Design Editor) and check? In a few days, when I can get to looking at the code for your first point above, I can double check that I don't impose a "minimum minimum", It's unlikely, though, or it would (should) be mentioned. If it does it would be to eliminate those ghosts.

Pete

 

[RJP]

Hi Pete,

Many thanks for such a quick reply.

18 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

Evidently, for the ones included (in error I think) in the XML file, I bypassed the check on the open / close flagging. I could look at that and maybe fix it. It won't be for a few days though.

Might it be possible to have a switch to select whether or not closed runways are included?

18 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

I'm afraid I've no idea what the shortest runway length is in the default FS scenery. Why don't you try making one shorter (using an AFD program like Airport Design Editor) and check? In a few days, when I can get to looking at the code for your first point above, I can double check that I don't impose a "minimum minimum", It's unlikely, though, or it would (should) be mentioned. If it does it would be to eliminate those ghosts.

According to a bit of googling it's TNCS (Saba, Netherlands Antilles) with 1,300 feet (evidently they're excluding the microlight fields). TNCS doesn't appear for me.....

Don't be mad at me but....... If I don't use the Water switches (makerwys />0) then I get 2 runways included (well both directions of 1) at EDCY with a surface type of Water (the other water runways at EDCY aren't listed).  If I include the Water switch (makerwys />0 /Water) then I get the same results.  If I use makerwys />0 /WaterOnly I get the same (lots of runways, only 2 water). If I use makerwys /Water then I get plenty of water runways included (including the other ones at EDCY). MakeRwys /WaterOnly includes a gravel runway at IN53. For EDCY only 2 of the 4 water runways are listed. MakeRwys />5000 gives plenty of runways, including many under 5000'.

Hope that doesn't cause grief? Thought it might be useful to list what I was / wasn't seeing.

Best regards & again, many thanks

Richard

 

[RJP]

I -think- what's written to the XML might be the issue....... using "MakeRwys />0 /Water", in the text file for (eg) AK02 I get;

Quote

Airport AK02 :N65:32:23.5915  W161:03:44.5594  575ft
          Country Name="United States"
          State Name="Alaska"
          City Name="Bear Creek"
          Airport Name="Bear Creek 1"
          in file: Scenery\0001\scenery\APX05080.bgl

 

          Runway 10 /28  centre: N65:32:23.5915  W161:03:44.5594  575ft
              Start 10 : N65:32:26.9281  W161:03:58.5171  575ft Hdg: 120.0T, Length 1400ft
              Start 28 : N65:32:20.2225  W161:03:30.6017  575ft Hdg: 300.0T, Length 1400ft
              Hdg: 120.000 true (MagVar 20.000), Gravel, 1400 x 65 ft
          FSM A/P AK02, lat=65.539886, long=-161.062378, alt=575

whilst in the XML I get;

Quote

<ICAO id="AK02">
<ICAOName>Bear Creek 1</ICAOName>
<Country>United States</Country>
<State>Alaska</State>
<City>Bear Creek</City>
<File>Scenery\0001\scenery\APX05080.bgl</File>
<SceneryName>0001 Base</SceneryName>
<Longitude>-161.062378</Longitude>
<Latitude>65.539886</Latitude>
<Altitude>575</Altitude>
<MagVar>20.000</MagVar>
</ICAO>
 

For the first sample airport I was looking at (MYZ2, Cape Eleuthera) the txt IDs a closed runway (without of course the start & end points):

Quote

Airport MYZ2 :N24:46:59.9805  W076:17:59.9999  9ft
          Country Name="Bahamas, The"
          State Name=""
          City Name="Cape Eleuthera"
          Airport Name="Cape Eleuthera"
          in file: Scenery\0302\scenery\APX27230.bgl

 

          Runway 11 /29  centre: N24:46:59.9805  W076:17:59.9999  9ft
              Runway 11  closed for landing and take-off
              Runway 29  closed for landing and take-off
              Hdg: 107.000 true (MagVar -3.000), Asphalt, 2000 x 50 ft
          Taxipoint #0, type 1 (normal):  N24:47:00.0453  W076:18:00.0771  -- Forward
          Taxipoint #1, type 1 (normal):  N24:47:02.8312  W076:17:59.3143  -- Forward
          Taxipath (Name #0):  Type 1 (Taxi), Start#=0, End#=1, Wid=15.24m
          Taxiname:  #0 =
        TaxiWay : 0-1
          FSM A/P MYZ2, lat=24.783333, long=-76.300003, alt=9

Best regards

Richard

[Pete Dowson]

I've made a note of all of your points and will check them when I get a moment. I'm afraid that might not be till I get back from my next travels, 20th September. I have a few days before going but will be pretty busy. Will post again if I find anything -- if you've not heard by, say, Friday 23rd, remind me, please.

Pete

 

[RJP]

42 minutes ago, Pete Dowson said:

I've made a note of all of your points and will check them when I get a moment. I'm afraid that might not be till I get back from my next travels, 20th September. I have a few days before going but will be pretty busy. Will post again if I find anything -- if you've not heard by, say, Friday 23rd, remind me, please.

Pete

 

Thank-you very much! :)

Enjoy the travels! Anywhere nice?

Best regards

Richard

[Pete Dowson]

13 minutes ago, RJP said:

Enjoy the travels! Anywhere nice?

It's a circular stream train tour through Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Slovenia and Austria. Pretty much all my holidays are for steam trains!

Pete

 

[RJP]

Sounds great! Enjoy!! :)

[RJP]

Hi Pete,

I managed to manipulate the info in runways.txt to create a spreadsheet with a listing of all airports, all runways (inc length / width, surface & including closed) & all comms data.

I understand that the files that MakeRwys creates are intended for use in the like of ATC utilities so my file may be of no use but if it might be of benefit to someone please let me know & I'd be very happy to send it.

Best regards

Richard

 

[Pete Dowson]

1 hour ago, RJP said:

I understand that the files that MakeRwys creates are intended for use in the like of ATC utilities so my file may be of no use but if it might be of benefit to someone please let me know & I'd be very happy to send it

Contributions like this are always welcome and I'm sure others will find it useful. Please post details, instructions etc in the "User Contributions" subforum, with a suitable thread title.

Pete

 

[RJP]

On 9/6/2016 at 11:10 PM, Pete Dowson said:

Contributions like this are always welcome and I'm sure others will find it useful. Please post details, instructions etc in the "User Contributions" subforum, with a suitable thread title.

Pete

 

Hi Pete,

No probs! I've been a bit tied up for a few days but once I have some time I'll tidy the file up and post it.

Best regards

Richard

[RJP]

On ‎06‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 11:10 PM, Pete Dowson said:

Contributions like this are always welcome and I'm sure others will find it useful. Please post details, instructions etc in the "User Contributions" subforum, with a suitable thread title.

Pete

 

Hi Pete,

Just cleaned up the file for upload...... Unfortunately though it's still 11.5mb so way over the attachment limit size.  Is there any other way to upload / share it?

Best regards

Richard

 

[Pete Dowson]

3 hours ago, RJP said:

Just cleaned up the file for upload...... Unfortunately though it's still 11.5mb so way over the attachment limit size.  Is there any other way to upload / share it?

If you would like to send it to me as an email attachment (petedowson@btconnect.com), I can upload it to the repository here and give you a link to include in your text.

Pete

 

[RJP]

19 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

If you would like to send it to me as an email attachment (petedowson@btconnect.com), I can upload it to the repository here and give you a link to include in your text.

Pete

 

Thanks Pete,

On it's way to you...

Best regards

Richard

 

[Pete Dowson]

On 9/1/2016 at 9:40 PM, RJP said:

I am having an issue though......... listing closed runways. Some airports in FSX in The Bahamas (just the area I'm looking at initially, there may be others) have only closed runways.  An example being MYZ2 (Cape Eleuthera).  I'd like to include closed runways in what I'm doing, the 'ClosedLanding' and 'ClosedTakeoff' fields in Runways.xml suggests that MakeRwys has the ability to list where either is 'TRUE'.

I'm just starting to look at these things.

Taking this first question, I am puzzled. As far as I can see, those runways without "Start Positions" designated (i.e. no thresholds for take off or landing positively identified) are simply not included at all in the Runways.XML. For instance, here is the entry for the default MYZ2:

<ICAO id="MYZ2">
	<ICAOName>Cape Eleuthera</ICAOName>
	<Country>Bahamas, The</Country>
	<City>Cape Eleuthera</City>
	<File>Scenery\0302\scenery\APX27230.bgl</File>
	<SceneryName>0302 Base</SceneryName>
	<Longitude>-76.300003</Longitude>
	<Latitude>24.783333</Latitude>
	<Altitude>9</Altitude>
	<MagVar>-3.000</MagVar>
</ICAO>

The same applies to the VHHX I thought I'd identified as another example, and also, in fact, to your AK02 example.

I'm not really willing to make such drastic changes to the program in order to add unusable runways to the XML file. It would mean whole new structures internally, a more sorting routines. The current Runway data, included in all files, is dependent upon their having identifying thresholds for the majority of programs which use them -- for navigational information, mostly.

I know some folks who wanted more from the files instead took to reading the log file (Runways.txt) instead, though if you do that you should search for airports from the end back because the later ones usually override the earlier one (depending on the "deletion" entries).

BTW I note that in one of my previous replies I said it looked like I hadn't omitted such runways in the XML whereas I had in the other files. On checking again today I really think I must have been mistaken. Even the code shows that is impossible, as all of the runway stuff is written to all the filetypes at the same point, for each airport in turn.

I'll look at the length and water restrictions now, but could you please back-check and make sure the results you got which seemed wrong were not partly because of the sheer omission of runways with no defined thresholds?

BTW there is no option "/<", which explains why that had no effect.

Pete

 

[Pete Dowson]

On 9/2/2016 at 7:42 PM, RJP said:

MakeRwys /WaterOnly includes a gravel runway at IN53.

On this one, despite the fact that the BGL encoding for the surface type has been set to "Gravel", the nomenclature for the runway is W meaning water.  The only choice for the runway is blank, Left, Centre, Right and Water. The selection /WaterOnly" selects all those with W, no matter what the surface is encoded as.

Airport IN53 :N39:17:30.1378  W086:49:25.0249  710ft
          Country Name="United States"
          State Name="Indiana"
          City Name="Spencer"
          Airport Name="Miller"
          in file: Scenery\0302\scenery\APX24180.bgl

          Runway 36W/18W centre: N39:17:30.1378  W086:49:25.0249  710ft
              Start 36W: N39:17:29.9434  W086:49:41.0360  710ft Hdg: 89.0T, Length 2600ft 
              Computed start 36W: Lat 39.291645 Long -86.828223
              Start 18W: N39:17:30.3646  W086:49:09.0120  710ft Hdg: 269.0T, Length 2600ft 
              Computed start 18W: Lat 39.291767 Long -86.819009
              Hdg: 89.000 true (MagVar -1.000), Gravel, 2600 x 50 ft
              *** Runway *** IN530364 Lat 39.291645 Long -86.828224 Alt 710 Hdg 90 Len 2600 Wid 50
              *** Runway *** IN530184 Lat 39.291767 Long -86.819008 Alt 710 Hdg 270 Len 2600 Wid 50
          FSM A/P IN53, lat=39.291710, long=-86.823616, alt=710

On a similar vein to the earlier question:

On 9/2/2016 at 7:42 PM, RJP said:

For EDCY only 2 of the 4 water runways are listed.

This is the same as the previous/y answered question -- only those two runways have defined thresholds, see:

Airport EDCY :N51:34:37.1785  E014:08:13.2004  375ft
          Country Name="Germany"
          State Name=""
          City Name="Spremberg"
          Airport Name="Welzow"
          in file: Scenery\0601\scenery\APX51130.bgl

          Runway 13W/31W centre: N51:33:19.3997  E014:06:48.5307  375ft
              Computed start 13W: Lat 51.551655 Long 14.122732
              Computed start 31W: Lat 51.559124 Long 14.104229
              Hdg: 302.983 true (MagVar 2.000), Water, 5000 x 1000 ft
              *** Runway *** EDCY0134 Lat 51.551655 Long 14.122732 Alt 375 Hdg 301 Len 5000 Wid 1000
              *** Runway *** EDCY0314 Lat 51.559124 Long 14.104229 Alt 375 Hdg 121 Len 5000 Wid 1000
          Runway 4 /22  centre: N51:34:43.7221  E014:08:20.8349  375ft
              Hdg: 35.980 true (MagVar 2.000), Concrete, 6551 x 98 ft
          Runway 4L/22R centre: N51:33:18.3955  E014:05:51.2159  375ft
              Hdg: 32.301 true (MagVar 2.000), Water, 5000 x 1000 ft
          COM: Type=11 (FSS), Freq=134.85, Name="WELZOW"
          FSM A/P EDCY, lat=51.577000, long=14.137000, alt=375

The only other one to look at is the />0 option I believe. Since I've no idea what the smallest one is, I'll start with />10000 to make sure the length check is applied. 

Pete

 

[Pete Dowson]

Okay. On the length restrictions, by default I get a range of runway lengths from 1503 (shortest) up to 16568. Of course those < 1500 are eliminated by default in any case.

With />10000 I get 10001 to 16568.

With />500 I get runways from 526 (yes, 526 feet!), again up to 16568.  07VT is the example with 526 feet runways. 

Finally, with \>0, I get runways from 33 feet, up to 16568.  I'm sure the 33 foot runway is a dummy (it's for an add-on KTDW), one of those "ghost (invisible) runways thee to try and assert more control over AI traffic.  One of the shortest with a proper runway is probably this one with just 150 feet::

<ICAO id="0WN5">
<ICAOName>Potts Field</ICAOName>
<Country>United States</Country>
<State>Wisconsin</State>
<City>North Cape</City>
<File>Scenery\0302\scenery\APX24160.bgl</File>
<SceneryName>0302 Base</SceneryName>
<Longitude>-88.048691</Longitude>
<Latitude>42.799740</Latitude>
<Altitude>815</Altitude>
<MagVar>-2.000</MagVar>
<Runway id="10">
<Len>150</Len>
<Hdg>100.000</Hdg>
<Def>Grass</Def>
<ILSFreq></ILSFreq>
<ILSHdg></ILSHdg>
<ILSid></ILSid>
<ILSslope>0.00</ILSslope>
<Lat>42.799763</Lat>
<Lon>-88.048965</Lon>
<FSStartLat>42.799767</FSStartLat>
<FSStartLon>-88.048965</FSStartLon>
<ClosedLanding>FALSE</ClosedLanding>
<ClosedTakeoff>FALSE</ClosedTakeoff>
<ApproachLights>NONE</ApproachLights>
<EdgeLights>NONE</EdgeLights>
<CenterLights>NONE</CenterLights>
<CenterRed>FALSE</CenterRed>
<EndLights>FALSE</EndLights>
<REIL>FALSE</REIL>
<Touchdown>FALSE</Touchdown>
<Strobes>0</Strobes>
<LeftVASI>NONE</LeftVASI>
<RightVASI>NONE</RightVASI>
<ThresholdOffset>0</ThresholdOffset>
<PatternTakeOff>Left</PatternTakeOff>
<PatternLanding>Left</PatternLanding>
<PatternAltitude>305</PatternAltitude>
</Runway>
<Runway id="28">
<Len>150</Len>
<Hdg>280.000</Hdg>
<Def>Grass</Def>
<ILSFreq></ILSFreq>
<ILSHdg></ILSHdg>
<ILSid></ILSid>
<ILSslope>0.00</ILSslope>
<Lat>42.799702</Lat>
<Lon>-88.048416</Lon>
<FSStartLat>42.799709</FSStartLat>
<FSStartLon>-88.048424</FSStartLon>
<ClosedLanding>FALSE</ClosedLanding>
<ClosedTakeoff>FALSE</ClosedTakeoff>
<ApproachLights>NONE</ApproachLights>
<EdgeLights>NONE</EdgeLights>
<CenterLights>NONE</CenterLights>
<CenterRed>FALSE</CenterRed>
<EndLights>FALSE</EndLights>
<REIL>FALSE</REIL>
<Touchdown>FALSE</Touchdown>
<Strobes>0</Strobes>
<LeftVASI>NONE</LeftVASI>
<RightVASI>NONE</RightVASI>
<ThresholdOffset>0</ThresholdOffset>
<PatternTakeOff>Right</PatternTakeOff>
<PatternLanding>Right</PatternLanding>
<PatternAltitude>305</PatternAltitude>
</Runway>
</ICAO>

BTW I've done these checks by sorting the file into numeric order of the length value position (the wonders of a decent text editor!), so I'm very confident in the results.

All in all, I can't find anything wrong. Sorry. In looking I've made a couple of small code improvements and may release 4.6991 soon, but it seems to do exactly what was intended of it.

Pete

 

[RJP]

Hi Pete,

Hopefully the train holiday was good?

Many thanks for looking into it!

Quote

I'll look at the length and water restrictions now, but could you please back-check and make sure the results you got which seemed wrong were not partly because of the sheer omission of runways with no defined thresholds?

In at least some cases yes, I believe this is the case.  I wondered about AK02 but that's less than 1503 (see below).

On ‎23‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 2:44 PM, Pete Dowson said:

On this one, despite the fact that the BGL encoding for the surface type has been set to "Gravel", the nomenclature for the runway is W meaning water.  The only choice for the runway is blank, Left, Centre, Right and Water. The selection /WaterOnly" selects all those with W, no matter what the surface is encoded as.

Ah, I see (& I also see the W on the runway designator now, I really should have done so previously, sorry).

On ‎23‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 3:33 PM, Pete Dowson said:

Okay. On the length restrictions, by default I get a range of runway lengths from 1503 (shortest) up to 16568. Of course those < 1500 are eliminated by default in any case.

Hmmmm, I've just tried re-running (with />10) and the shortest I get is 1503, almost as though the switch is not being considered. I've just tried />500 too and the shortest I get is still (oddly!) 1503. Wonder if it can be a system related issue? FYI I'm using Win10, with command prompt run as admin.

On ‎23‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 3:33 PM, Pete Dowson said:

Okay. On the length restrictions, by default I get a range of runway lengths from 1503 (shortest) up to 16568. Of course those < 1500 are eliminated by default in any case.

With />10000 I get 10001 to 16568.

With />500 I get runways from 526 (yes, 526 feet!), again up to 16568.  07VT is the example with 526 feet runways. 

Finally, with \>0, I get runways from 33 feet, up to 16568.  I'm sure the 33 foot runway is a dummy (it's for an add-on KTDW), one of those "ghost (invisible) runways thee to try and assert more control over AI traffic.  One of the shortest with a proper runway is probably this one with just 150 feet::

(snip)

BTW I've done these checks by sorting the file into numeric order of the length value position (the wonders of a decent text editor!), so I'm very confident in the results.

All in all, I can't find anything wrong. Sorry. In looking I've made a couple of small code improvements and may release 4.6991 soon, but it seems to do exactly what was intended of it.

Pete

 

Many thanks again Pete, yep I'm thinking now that as opposed to there being anything 'wrong' that for some reason the length switch is being ignored when I run, I wouldn't have a clue either why or how to confirm / workaround though.

Best regards

Richard