Japhus

Hi Hartleecub, Without seeing a screenshot of your attempt it's hard to know what might be wrong. However, my first suggestion would be to take a look at the screenshot I've attached of the KLAX outer marker JETSA and see if you spot any differences. I'm hoping to create sectors of my own at some point so I'm learning what to watch for from your experiences. Hopefully this will be of some help to you. Jamie

Hi Gel, Yeah, I know what you mean about needing the vertical seperation between SADDE 6 flights and those from RIIVER/SEAVU/OLDEE. Since my SADDE 6's are automatically at 7k and the RIIVR arrivals are at 12k I have no issues. I'm still working out sequencing the SEAVU arrivals with RIIVR at peak times. OLDEE's aren't that common it seems. But as you suggested before, I'm working with speed more now rather than vectoring. Anyone else want to share their strategies or tips?

Sorry it didn't work for you, I'll have to try adding a line next time I'm editing and find out what does work.

I'm still new to this sim and I thought I'd share a few random thoughts and observations. First off, I started a thread not so long ago asking how people played and showed I handled traffic in LAX. Well, things have changed... I've gone and edited the STARS quite a lot to more closely match the STAR charts found on Flight Aware. I've even changed the sector altitude up 1,000. Now I can only handoff flights at 10,000 and Center gives most flights to me at 16,000. Now we are both handing off within 3,000 of the theoretical 13,000 foot boundary between LAX and Center. I don't know if that's "real life" but it's equal now for both sides. I rarely vector incoming flights anymore at all. If anything I vector for sequencing but I'm going to start trying to sequence more with speed adjustments. Taking a flight off of a STAR is just a recipe for trouble I find. Usually I don't even have talk to them after "Radar Contact" now, I just turn them to the airport after they exit the STAR in a lot of cases and wait for them to come within visual range. My workload is down a lot now that I'm not baby sitting flights from start to finish. I was guilty of over controlling...oops. SADDE 6 arrivals I vector to EMT and down to 4,000 after they pass SMO and between MERCE and BASET I'll turn them to 180 degrees and clear for visual approach. KIMMO 2 arrivals same thing. However I'm thinking of not even dropping them to 4,000 in the future or giving the vector to EMT. The flights naturally exit SMO heading 070 and that seems to be what I've heard on Live ATC although from time to time I hear the controllers say exit SMO heading 065. RIIVR 2 arrivals exit the STAR heading 250, I'll drop them to 7000 and give them clearance once they are in visual range. SEAVU 2 and OLDEE 1 arrivals need to be turned to 250 and have their altitude reduced but that's all. They are where I have the most trouble in a session though. Sequencing the flights from all three of those STARS is a headache. LEENA 4 and BUFIE 1 are just as simple as SADDE 6 now. They both exit the STAR at 7,000 and I just send them to BASET. At some point I'll turn them to DOWNE and drop them to 5,000. I chopped the LEENA 4 STAR a little short as it causes an unhandled plane error if you let it go all the way to the original corner. I adjusted it to goto CWARD instead and even with a No Communication error the flight will fly the STAR without losing you points. BUFIE 1 used to dump flights out towards the North East, now they are turned right back towards SLI like that STAR chart shows. Much less hassle with those flights now. I also changed STARS like MOORPARK so they only come up for runways 6/7. Same with the BASET STAR. according to the charts at Flight Aware it's only for runways 6/7. I might have changed a few others but I'm going by memory at this point although I am keeping a log of the changes. Here's a snippet from my change log... Base Sector Removed navigation aid OS (Romen) from map as it overlaps outer marker waypoint JETSA. Changed Custom param SHOW:TRUE to FALSE. Removed waypoint NATHN as it overlaps waypoint NAANC, SHOW: T/F. Removed navigation aid SB (Petis) as it overlaps waypoint PETIS, SHOW: T/F. Added FUELR, PURMS & SADDE waypoints, SHOW: T/F. Small notes... Sometimes I like to speak in a Scottish accent...for some reason MS speech recognition understands that better sometimes. Yoo knighted tree fife tree raid are kon tact! (UA353 radar contact). MS speech recognition seems to have issues with my normal Canadian accent sometimes. Vectoring flights towards each other when you already have a sequencing problem is not a good idea! I've gotten more conflicts that way than anything else. I like to keep flights at 7,000 until I clear them to land. Why? If I get distracted and they overfly the runways they are above the arrival streams and don't cause a seperation error. If it were real life I'd still get chewed out I'm sure but at least nobody has to evade. I'll probably be making more changes in the future, there are so many details in the STARS and SIDS it's kind of daunting. Anyone else have some favourite edits or tips they'd like to share? Fly safe!

In the Control Panel Video Map Brightness dims the centerlines on my map

Sorry - disregard my post here. Don't know how to delete.

Hi Vic, No problem, I don't want to distract you guys from your other projects, that's why I asked. Thanks again for the sim.

So far I've done all of my time controlling KLAX and I've gotten a little complacent I must admit. I've edited some of the SID's and STAR's to make minor corrections in altitudes or missed legs on a route and things normally flow quite smoothly. Notice I said normally....I should have known better. Session parameters - KLAX - Time 14:00 - 100% Approach Rwy 24R/25L, 50% Departure 24L/25R, realistic weather, Real Traffic addon. It starts off nice and slow at first, UA18 is climbing out and although I know QFA93, SKW6123 are inbound they haven't been handed over as yet. I'm casually re-arranging the menus, getting the zoom right on the scope and generally settling in for a few hours of fun. And then it happens...I'm in the middle of giving an instruction to one of the flights when suddenly the runway centerlines switch! I look over at the wind gauge and sure enough there is a 20 knot tailwind blowing down the runway centerline. Approaching flights are going to have to land from the oceanside of LAX instead... Oh boy. Alright I say to myself, it's ok. I don't have any flights cleared for approach, it's not too busy yet but I know I have a lot of planes incoming. Now I start re-routing the incoming flights..."QFA93 cleared direct to Waker"...I hear a burst of laughter from the kitchen as my wife hears me say "Whack her". She also tends to giggle a bit when I vector flights to "SAD" as well. Wow, the wind gauge is reading 38 knots almost due South now, glad I'm not landing in that crosswind. "SKW6123 cleared direct to Pevee"...ok, breathe, oops LAN600 is being handed over, what am I going to do with him? He's way over by Riivr and expecting to land on 25L. "LAN600 Radar Contact", "LAN600 proceed direct Holtz". I can just imagine a real pilot would answer "Holtz? I'm going to LAX buddy not Santa Catalina!". Oh well, I'll figure it out when he gets closer. Oops better descend him to 10,000 before he gets too close to the Imper departure route. Valujet 346 didn't make his turn and now he's late heading that way and will cross LAN600's track quite nicely for a conflict. QFA93 is approaching the western boundary, I better turn him north, "QFA93 proceed direct Nancy" I say rather breathlessly. His answer? "Negative". "QFA93 proceed direct Nance"...answer "Negative". "QFA93 proceed direct Timse", thank goodness he takes that one. Whew! Ok, note to self, find out the correct pronunciation for NAANC. Whoops, I have to clear him for landing...uh oh...I don't know what runways are used for ocean approaches! Agh! Desperately I radio QFA93 who must figure I'm having a nervous breakdown "QFA93 cleared visual approach runway 7L", answer "Negative". Then I try 7R, 6L, 6R, all are rejected...he's almost crossing the centerline now. Ooops, forgot to ask if he can see the airport, that's why he won't accept any clearances to land. Eventually, I figured out that it was runway 06L and 07R and that you had to pronounce that leading 0. More departures, more arrivals are being handed over. Some departures aren't following their departure routes but are just flying heading 070 forever. Oh well, things are settling into a routine as I re-route flights for ocean approaches and start realizing which departure need help and which don't. I'm still somewhat rattled from the sudden change and it's a relief when I hear my wife call out that supper is ready. When I sit down she asks what's happening because it sounded like I was getting a little frantic there for a bit. I briefly explain the wind change and she rolls her eyes and hands me my plate. Air Traffic Controllers get no respect... Oh well, still having fun and I didn't crash anyone yet...now what's the pronunciation for NAANC? I'll have to Google that later.

Hi Vic, Thankyou for the reply, in the meantime should I report the bugs I have found or have they pretty much been documented already? For instance I have found the following items which I believe to be errors... Leena4 arrival can cause Airplane Not Handled error. On the SXC-IPNAW leg of the arrival flights will generate an Airplane Not Handled error if they aren't given a turn shortly before reaching IPNAW. Gorman and Ventura SID's both appear to have a leg in the departure route marked as "Target Marker Only" causing flights to miss turns. Planes can be sent to the tower frequency multiple times for bonus points. In the meantime thankyou for creating this wonderful sim, I'll likely pickup NY next and will be looking forward to seeing KORD in the future.

I've been playing Tracon 2012 (LAX/LAS/MIA sectors) pretty steadily since buying it just after Christmas and was wondering what are the "known issues" at the moment? I would like to report errors/bugs that I have come across but I don't want to waste peoples time with items that are already known.

While using the LAX sector I noticed that flights leaving via the Gorman 4 departure that said they were climbing to 3000 always flew straight away from the runway and never made the right turn to Gorman (GMN). I believe I found the solution. It appears the 2nd leg of the SID route is marked "Target Marker Only" which causes flights to ignore the right turn command. Once I cleared that check box in the editor my flights starting making that right hand turn every time. If you choose to make the same edit please make sure you make a backup of your LAX sector first in case something goes wrong. Better safe than sorry (I hate re-installing). To fix the "no right turn" issue you must use the airspace editor to open the LAX sector file. Then you use the drop down window to open the SID routes. Then you highlight GORMAN 4 so the various legs appear in the right hand window. Then you highlight the GMN_24_25 leg and you'll see a check mark in the box marked "Target Marker Only". Finally you clear the "Target Marker Only" box of it's checkmark by clicking on it once. You now have to save your sector file, I suggest you name it something like LAX TEST so you don't overwrite the original.

Hi Kevin, Thanks for the tip, much appreciated. I'll have to do some experimenting with that file as well. I have also edited CATHAY into two words, CATH HAY. I think it sounds better than before, if you try it out let me know what you think.

Hi Gel, Thanks for those Pearson images...interesting. I did find something similiar to that for KLAX on one of the Noise Abatement pages. It's only for night departures though. Hi Satch, Thanks for that link, it's so much more convenient than looking at all of the approach plates! I'm going to have to add that website to my list of favourites. It looks like it's a good resource. In a perfect world I'd like to find a site that had say 2-3 hours (or more) of ATC synchronized radar and radio available to watch/listen. I'd like to get a feel for how the real controllers handle situations that arise while handling flights. A couple of weeks back while listening to the Live ATC I heard one controller repeatedly trying to contact a departing flight unsuccessfully. It definetly was causing him some stress, you could really hear it in his voice. I don't recall the flight number now, but he scolded that pilot for not answering his call four times in a row. I've successfully landed a medical emergency in one of my playthroughs but it wasn't terribly challenging because there weren't that many flights inbound and it was easy to slot them in ahead of other flights.

Hi Gel, Yes, google is my friend for airline codes on a regular basis. I've had Tinnitus (ringing in the ears) since a very early age and I've found it makes it hard for me to distinguish certain letter sounds even with a clear pronunciation. MS Anna's way of speaking is certainly creative at times. Copa Air, Kanga, and Aero Mexico all made me pause and run to google the first time they popped up. Thanks for the tip on activating multiple airports, I'm going to have to give that a try!

Hi Gel, Yes I've had some close calls on that side as well...I think AMX18 and another flight if I recall correclty. I could be completely wrong on that though... I didn't know you could handle multiple airports at the same time. From the appearance of the setup menu I thought it was KLAX or SMO or SLI but not KLAX and SMO and SLI. I'm going to have to re-read the manual! As for the flights out of SMO I know what you mean about them being a little hard to handle sometimes at 250 knots. I have noticed that sometimes the real controllers at KLAX have them leave SMO at 065 degrees and some of them say depart SMO at 070 degrees. That extra 5 degrees gives them a little extra room I guess. By the way do you use speech recognition or do you type? If you do use speech recognition do you run into the issue I mentioned of the Text to Speech readbacks becoming backlogged? If not, what was your solution?

I've been listening to KLAX on the Live ATC website and watching the radar on Flight Aware. However, since the data on Flight Aware is delayed and the radio is live it's hard to match up the two of course. Does anyone know of a website that has synchronized radio/radar data? I'm not worried about it being live, I'd just like to get a feel for how a typical day flows around the KLAX complex. Also, at some point in my early browsing I once came across a picture that showed all of the flight tracks into KLAX over a number of hours or perhaps days. It was easy to spot the SID/STAR tracks that were typically used for departures and approaches. However, I can't find that data anymore as I don't recall where I came across it now. Anyone have any ideas?

Hi Gel Any input is welcome, I am no expert by any means. I realize it would be rare indeed for someone to handle both positions. I just like the challenge. Glad you're enjoying the sim, I am too. I climb Sadde arrivals to 10k so they don't conflict with Gorman departures which have a 6k ceiling. Also, the approach plate for Sadde shows Symon should be crossed between 10k and 13k, Bayst at 10k and SMO at 7k. Mind you I have listened to the LAX live atc and have heard controllers telling inbound flights they can ignore the Symon altitude restriction. I climb arrivals passing through SLI to 7k for two reasons, first on the assumption that they would be generating less noise than at 4.5k altitude. Also, say for some reason I forget to clear an inbound flight coming from SLI to runway 25L. They'll cross the inbound streams at 7k which will be above the 5k stream for 25L and the 4k stream for 24R. While I would still consider it a major error at least at 7k they won't cause a conflict generally. At 4.5 altitude they are guarenteed to conflict with almost any landing flights on either runway. I pretty much always maintain my seperations through careful vectoring and use speed changes as a last resort. It works out usually although some handoffs from Center force speed changes because they are so close to each other when they are handed over. There are a couple of flights that come through Fillmore that can be really hair raising I find.

Hi KissTimone I derived my approach / departure procedures mostly from watching Mark Hargrove's excellent videos on Youtube. In fact, it's because of his videos that I bought Tracon 2012 in the first place. In the beginning I also only used ILS approaches but after listening to actual KLAX radio I formed the impression that visual approaches are more the norm. I climb my Sadde6 arrivals to 10k until SMO to avoid the Gorman departures as well. I see we have similiar approach procedures but you're handling more departures than I do. Do you use Voice Recognition? I find it can get overloaded at peak times and sometimes I'll miss an arrival or departure announcement because of the backlog. To counter this I'm starting to pause the sim from time to time so the Text to Speech readouts can catch up. Do you run into the same problem? Hi Dpnva Looking forward to finding out how you and others handle the traffic loads at LAX. As I said above I give credit to Mark Hargrove's videos for my style of play although I've looked through many of the SID and STAR plates available online and I'm sure they have influenced me as well.

Thanks for the reply, is there a "Known Issues" list somewhere? I'm mostly playing LAX at this point and would like to avoid reporting items that you already know about. You mention that what I describe is not a NY issue, are the bugs/issues I mentioned unique to the LAX/LAS/MIA release then? If you ever need a beta tester I'd be happy to volunteer my time to help out as well.

I would like to know what bugs have been fixed with the NY sector release. IE - Wandering altitudes fixed? - Tower frequency exploit fixed? - Send a flight the tower frequency multiple times for unlimited points. - Profiles not tracking landings and takeoffs. Also, what new commands are available? Can you now issue altitude instructions in one line after saying "Radar Contact"? Dynamic weather is listed as a feature...will flights ask to be vectored around weather? Will airports close due to heavy weather in the area? How will weather affect the sim? Also, please don't misconstrue these questions as criticisms, this sim is the best around in my opinion. Jamie ps - Any chance of KORD being available for Tracon in the future? :razz:

I generally play LAX sector at 75% arrivals and 25% departures at this point and use voice recognition. I've slightly sped up the readback speed on the Text to Speech but even so at peak times I have to pause the game from time to time to allow MS Anna a chance to catch up. At a guess I've sometimes had as much as 30 seconds of continous speech buffered. I use Real Traffic and usually start my sim at 14:00 LA time. For Northern coastal approaches such as Sadde I climb arrivals to 10k and vector direct to Santa Monica (SMO) after they pass the northern boundary by Symon. From SMO I usually vector them to EMT and descend to 7k and then 4k before turning them to heading 180 and clearing for visual approach on 24R. I usually turn them to heading 180 before GAATE unless traffic coming from NAROD is already on approach. For Northern inland approaches I descend them to 12k intially while clearing direct to NAROD. Once they are above RIIVR I'll decend them to 10k and at Narod down to 4k for 24R visual. For Easterly approaches I descend them to 12k and have them proceed to PDZ, then down to 5k to BASET for 25L visual. Southerly approaches I climb to 7k, direct to SLI and usually turn them in to GAATE while descending to 5k for 25L visual. If traffic from PDZ is too thick to turn them to GAATE then usually somewhat south of SLI I vector the southerly traffic to PDZ and turn them in behind the other flights. I'll play the game on and off over the next several days leaving it paused overnight. I think my longest play session went from 14:00 till 21:00 LAX time. The log file was huge and although I did manage to extract the number of takeoffs and landings I don't recall what the final numbers were now. I'm curious what your favourite sectors / playstyles are, how do you play? Jamie

Thankyou! I'm looking forward to trying out the NY sector. :) Jamie

Hi Vic, Thankyou for your reply. I only give altitude instructions in thousands of feet when I'm using Tracon 2012. Would it be easier to "fix" this behaviour in the game by telling it ignore hundreds and tens of feet for altitude instructions? I don't know how "realistic" that would be but having the program assume only thousand foot instructions would be less work than having it determine hundreds and tens I would think. Just a thought...

When I first started using Tracon 2012 I was at a loss for how to pronounce the various 3 letter waypoints in the LAX sector. At first I looked them up on AirNav I believe or just tried Google but eventually I discovered that they were listed in the game log file. So, I've attached the waypoints in two files below to save any new enthusiasts the trouble of digging them up again. In the LAX list I offset the Paradise waypoint because it didn't line up properly, I also did the same with Daggett in the Las Vegas list. I would suggest you preview the files before printing to avoid wasting paper in case you have to realign some of the other entries. Jamie LAX waypoints.txt LAS MIA waypoints.txt

I recently purchased Tracon 2012 and am enjoying it immensely, however I'm wondering if there is an update coming up soon or not? I specifically am wondering about tracking successful landings and takeoffs. I saw on the previous forum this issue was discussed in early 2013 but it doesn't seem to be resolved as yet. Another issue would be the issuing of altitudes. If you give an altitude of 12 thousand (or any other alt) often the hundreds portion will fluctuate significantly if you let go of the PTT button too soon. Is this something that can be fixed or is it a MS speech recognition issue? On another note I would like to thank the many people who posted here and elsewhere on the web their hints and guides for using Tracon 2012. The videos of Mark Hargrove in fact are the very reason I choose to buy this software in the first place. Jamie