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Valcor

Stutt.....stutt....stuttering!

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I have MY2004 with the newest update and that is when my problem began. I have found since the most recent update, my overall fps has been improved but a severe stutter has developed when around traffic. This problem is apparent from any % of traffic.

When stuttering the framerate is not observed to drop (Further testing concluded this isn't always the case. The fps counter just doesn't alway's pick it up. In bad stutters, went from as much as 25 to 1.5). I get great fps even with higher %'s of traffic, just worse stuttering. I conducted several tests at KSAN with different %'s of AI and could not clear up the stuttering except by completely disabling traffic. When paused, the fps remains the same.

Please, any ideas? Otherwise, I'll have to figure out how to de-update.

My system is a P43.2, 2gig ram, X850PE.

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Please, any ideas? Otherwise, I'll have to figure out how to de-update.

I would take a closer look at what is going on with your operating system, first. Are you shutting down any unnecessary programs or services? Have you defragged your harddrive? Have you set your video card to give best performance with FS9?

Then I would take a closer look as to your FS9 settings such as resolution, details, etc.

In other words I would try to look for another source of the stuttering befoe I would "de-update." :shock:

-- WH

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Yes, I run FSAutoStart and defrag regularly. I've tried different AA and AF settings.

The sim runs fine without traffic and continues to perform with good frames even with >75% traffic, but the stutters makes it dissapointing.

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Hi Valcor, as far as I would dare to judge, there are 2-3 details which should reduce the tendency to stutter:

- As you tried, reducing the traffic density (if you i.e. have a preference heavies, you could also uncheck 'GA' in the traffic settings)

- Perhaps try to reduce the 'Global texture quality' in the display settings?

- Add DXTn=0 to the fs9.cfg (in the display settings/there where the resolution is mentionend and where the user might add lines like PanelasTexture=0 etc)

It would be of great help if you could be more specific about your observations: Location, time, perhaps a partucular aircraft, etc? The more specific, the better.

Cheers and kind regards

Jaap

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Finally I know what you are talking about.

I got hands on a new system with the following specs:

Dell Optiplex DX620 with PIV/3000 dual core, 1 GB RAM, ATI Radeon 600XE, SATA disk. Should be near to "high end".

Installed FS9.1, and used from stock. First look to the Task manager: FS9 uses one core only, the other remains 100% idle unless other tasks want to be done. At least, FS9 sticks to one CPU.

Framerates with all settings at default, but framerate delimiter to unlimited, and AI traffic at 100%:

No traffic 44 fps

Stock AI (106 aircraft) 36 fps

MT2006 (422 aircrafts around ) 24 fps

So, a stock AI aircraft costs 4.76x10E-5 fps**-1, a MT one 4.48E-5 - fine.

AI traffic is working fluently.

Than I started to move myself, and made rather sharp turns. Indeed, when aircrafts come into site, they may be gray, the second they get colored one frame gets undisplayed.

Needless to say that I updated the drivers etc...

Setting DXTN=0 didn't help. Reducing the Mip map quality to 3 didn't either. Only slider that helped was the framerate delimter, down to 13 textures loaded fast enough.

Installed the notebook edition. Big advantage, now almost free of this effect up to 17-19 delimiter settings. One aircraft gave again this hang - an American MD80 - one of the few aircrafts still 1024x1024 in the notebook edition - will convert this and try again.

Now I wonder, why this discussion did not show up earlier. We got reports on these missing frames now from MT2006 as well as from MT2004V21 - the latter being on the market since more than a year.

When it came out, the average system had a 2.6GHz CPU and a Geforce 4 or 5, that produced 25 fps without AI traffic. CPUs haven't got faster since two years (unless you changed to the AMD 64 bit CPU), but grafic adapters have. Can it be that we were used to lower framerates were we didn't see the time it took to load the textures, and now the higher end adapters promise high fps - and the slow CPUs cannot deliver the data? What else can have changed from January 2005 to December 2005?

Most of my tests have been made on a Athlon XP 1800+ with a Geforce2, an XP2200+ with a GF4 and now on an Athlon 64 3GHz with a Geforce 6600, and do not show such effects as I saw now.

At least I have a system now were I can experiment...

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Good to hear you reproduced it. The one thing I can think that changed on my computer in that time is indeed the new graphics card.

I will edit my cfg with the one you posted in the other thread and report my findings.

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Hi guys, I just wanted to comment on this since it has been bugging me since a while, but I never really directly faulted MT so I didn't post here.

I am using MyTraffic 2004 for about 1 1/2 years, maybe a bit more. I never had this issue until about a few months ago. This was on the same PC with no hardware changes, only OS updates.

I started relentlessly upgrading the PC in the last few months from a

2.8GHz P4 800FSB, 1GB 2700 DDR dual channel, FX 5900

to a

3.4GHz P4 800FSB, 1GB 3200 DDR dual channel, X850 XT PE

The particular problem remained, so at this time I went back to default traffic, which sucks. :(

So here are some thoughts that may help, I hope:

- I don't believe it is because we got used to better framerates. It happened on my PC recently (even before my hardware upgrade), but not 1 1/2 years ago.

- It happens with different video cards from different manufacturers. The FX 5900 and the XT 850 PE, in both cases with the latest drivers.

- It happens on a machine that is dedicated to FS and has no other crap installed.

- It happened on my machine even when I turned down ALL FS settings to the absolute minimum, except traffic of course (FS 9 looked like FS 4 or something).

- I think the only thing that changed between than and now are Windows updates.

So in conclusion I'd take a close look at DirectX, maybe go back to an old version and even old video drivers. Maybe recent changes for shaders, etc. made DX8 apps run slower, load textures slower. Maybe the texture loader in DX was rewritten, maybe just the part seeking on the drive, who knows.

I hope this may help to track it down. I'd love to install MyTraffic again.

Btw. for some reason I had to re-register on this forum, my old login no longer worked and it didn't let me retrieve the password, saying my email didn't match.

Matthias

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Very very interesting. Others with similar experience?

I heared a lot about FS9, without any obvious reason, became unstable or stuttering sometimes about three months ago, people had to remove meshes and landclasses, the road and river addons make problems. Some blamed XP SP2 and its slow way to access files for this, no idea. All I know is that on a computer that does nothing, the disk is busy all the time nowadays.

On the ATI X600 system here I could verify that FS9 just does not know how to handle that, manual handling with the bandwidth parameter improved significantly.

Definitvely, the smaller textures contained in the Notebook version always help, so it is really an issue of texture loading. The assumption, that computers get faster powerful than the user wishes increase is wrong, users which 10x the performance while computing power raises by 10% and the increasing demands of the OS require more.

FS9 was programmed for AGP cards, these have the option to put textures into the main memory in case of overflow, that made frames slow, PCIe cards haven't any option for this, at least I haven't seen any.

Is a new Flight Simulator written for current hardware concepts overdue?

Does our understanding help?

We can improve things by optimizing parameters. We can improve by making smaller textures. Both on the short term. We can improve with new design methods like the explicit mip mapping as addition to hard LOD-modelling. We have to face the fact that for FSX times, users will require more detailled models, more detailed textures, and we will have less system resources to make them. That just means another few thousand of hours of work.

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That's interesting regarding the other add-on problems. And I also noticed that my laptop sometimes thrashes the harddrive for long times on end while idle.

Messing with the bandwidth parameter has helped me, too, but the results where very different from what I would have assumed based on the FS developer blog (http://steve-lacey.com/blogarchives/200ters.shtml).

I get better results with higher values, even though you would think that causes more stutters. But for me the stutters are always the same, but higher values load scenery textures a lot faster with no additional stuttering.

This may also point at the fact that not the loading but the disk seek is the cause and what is described in the blog is based on a Windows installation from the time they actually made FS, not reconizing the fact that there is some new issue.

So I have a few more thoughts. I bet tracking that down could make an army of FS users happier (with MT or not), as it probably has an effect on any texture loading in the game.

So here it goes:

- Did Microsoft introduce any kind of new, modified or additional file indexing service ?

- I don't think it is SP2 in particular, as I use SP2 since it came out and had no particular problems with it back then.

- Could the Malicious Software Removal Tool that Microsoft introduced not too long ago be the culprit (http://www.microsoft.com/security/malwafault.mspx) ?

- Any other specific Windows updates recently that may have an influence ?

- What happens when installing Windows XP from scratch off disk, no internet connected and no online updates performed ? Does the issue still occur ? Obviously this is quite a task...

- How about just manually rolling back Windows Updates one by one ?

Anyway, I wish I had the time to look into this in detail, but I have to get to work where a ball and chain is waiting for me. But I'll surf the M$ webpage in my downtime, see if I can find any hints. Maybe contacting ATI and NVIDIA or surfing their knowledgbase could reveal some info.

Matthias

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I made another observation today that may help.

I reinstalled MT2004 (v2.1) and compared similar traffic density of default traffic and MT.

On an airport with 2 or 3 default AI planes, no stuttering occurs. If I disable default traffic and turn MT back on, set it to about 10% so I have 2 or 3 MT AI aircraft at the airport, it stutters like crazy when rotating the camera.

I don't know anything about what type of textures you use or how the planes are organized but maybe that is a hint.

For example:

- Difference in texture format/size/mips/etc. between default and MT planes ?

- Too many planes or textures in one folder for MT ? Maybe splitting would help ?

Btw. I even ran the disk defragmenter before installing MT.

Anyway, I hope this helps and you can track the problem down.

Matthias

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Now that I'm back I will look more deeper into this. The pure number of aircrafts is a quantitiy I also suspect as one of many candidates...

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I bought MT2006 yesterday (boxed edition). This was my first AI traffic program an I must say that I was really disappointed about the stutter. But after reading this thread it seems that it has only occurred recently.

First I thought that it was because of the immense traffic density. So I lowered the density to 55%. The density went down, but stutter didn't change much.

So I started to make environment ugly for the sake of flyability. Everything down...looks ugly but framerates were slightly better.

Ok, when approaching Washington airport (Ronald Reagan) the stutter started again. Obviously it was because of the huge traffic around the airport. :shock:

So is there going to be anything to be done other than removing the product. :cry:

What about the installation procedure ? It asked me if it could make own core.dll and I allowed MT2006 to do it.

Also it made own sound enhancements (what are they) and some environment graphics.

Did I do something wrong ? :(

My system was defragged and clean installation of MS FS 9.1 + MS2006 + PMDG 737-800/900 (boxed) + Scandinavian airports 2.

System specs are: Intel P4 HT + 1Gb RAM (HyperX 400MHz) + Ati Radeon X800 xt pe

:!: No stutter with other sw on disk and no stutter with MS FS before MT2006 :!:

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The boxed version is supported by Aerosoft and not here, so we cannot discuss the installer issues of that here, because this is different to the Simmarket version.

But on the stuttering, 90% of all cases could elliminate it by doing a few things, strongly depending on your grafics adapter and driver.

It looks like FS9 is using far sub-optimal settings for the newest grafics drivers. Please have a look into

http://forums.simflight.com/viewtopic.php?t=47430

and change the bandwidth parameter, this can be one of the bottlenecks.

If the bottleneck is disk/IO, the notebook edition can help.

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Ok, thanks for the quick reply. I try to solve the problem

as discussed in the other thread.

The boxed version is supported by Aerosoft and not here, so we cannot discuss the installer issues of that here, because this is different to the Simmarket version.

But on the stuttering, 90% of all cases could elliminate it by doing a few things, strongly depending on your grafics adapter and driver.

It looks like FS9 is using far sub-optimal settings for the newest grafics drivers. Please have a look into

http://forums.simflight.com/viewtopic.php?t=47430

and change the bandwidth parameter, this can be one of the bottlenecks.

If the bottleneck is disk/IO, the notebook edition can help.

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Just want to thank for the advise Burkhard. Frame rates went up where they belong. :D

I set the texture value as suggested and added the max load line there.

Also lowered the traffic level to 20, but with that the airports were just as crowded as I want them to be. Love to see and hear those real airlines.

Oooh I love this :lol:

First time it is nice to make some tours around the world. No more those landmark airlines etc... Oooh :lol:

Thans again !

P.S. Did I mentionOooh ! :wink:

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Thanks for these nice words! After giving an advice it is always valuable to get such a feedback, since this confirms the understanding I have about what is happeing in the box near to your feet, or questions it, both valubale for future development.

The detailed discussion here about the stuttering led to many experiments, and a consequence of it is a complely new technology to build AI aircrafts that allow for more details and higher resoultion in combination with still improved framerate and elemination of stuttering even with wrong settings. All newly released MyTraffic models will use this technology. The backdraw is that design work increases significantly, and all models and most textures have to be redone for this. So until all aircrafts are replaced by this we will talk about FS 11. But the redo of the largest and most frequent series, the 737s, goes on well, and one after the other will follow.

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Wow, thanks Burkhard for those settings.

I can now pan round a busy airport with NO stutters and

a steady framerate of 20fps.

Best wishes.

JK.

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i experience these stutters as well and its horrible...

i never had this with MT2004.

i did all the things u recommended but its still unplayable for me, so in the meantime im gonna go back to MT2004.

so will there ever be a free update or patch for MT2006???

greets burt

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A patch that adresses this problem effectively is in the late beta state.

Indeed since there was no more feedback on the last version, I will release it today.

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The patch concerning MT2004. I do not have the files you listed in the instructions. (aircraft\CH53_My

aircraft\B727_1MY

Please delete the following files:

Addon Scenery\MyWorldAirports\scenery\ETHB_Poly_LWM.bgl

Addon Scenery\MyWorldAirports\scenery\ETHC_Poly_LWM.bgl

Addon Scenery\MyWorldAirports\scenery\ETHF_Poly_LWM.bgl

Addon Scenery\MyWorldAirports\scenery\ETHL_Poly_LWM.bgl

Addon Scenery\MyWorldAirports\scenery\ETHM_Poly_LWM.bgl

Addon Scenery\MyWorldAirports\scenery\ETHN_Poly_LWM.bgl

Addon Scenery\MyWorldAirports\scenery\SPLP_Poly_LWM.bgl )

I assume this is not a problem. What I am not clear on is the texture conversion to DXT1. I will backup the aircraft directory first but, is this conversion tool effective only on MT aircraft? Will it affect any of my other aircraft? Should I only copy the MT planes to a seperate folder to run the conversion?

Michael

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I asked: Can this texture conversion be used for MyTraffic2004? I hope so.

Burkhard replied: Yes. If you have MT2004, you should install the patch to a temp directory.

Than, you can move the new/redone airports, the new/redone aircrafts and the aircraftsmod directory over to your FS9 install, and do everything with it. Since there are import files for the editor for the B52 and the B739, you can add them in.

So I ask for conversion instructions again. Thank you,

Michael

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