E-Jets V2 steep ils approaches

[UnstableNuclearHedgehog]

I'm having some issues with the E195 trying to fly a steep ILS approach.

Specifically, the approach into London City Airport (LCY/EGLC). It has a 5.5° glideslope.

The aircraft won't follow it correctly. It captures the localizer just fine, but always starts decending far too slowly when it intercepts the glideslope, resulting in the aircraft quickly being far too high.

Is there something I need to do to tell the aircraft it's a steep approach, or is it just a foible of FSX that the AP can't follow anything except the standard 3° glideslope?

Edited March 23, 2018 by UnstableNuclearHedgehog
Edited for speeling mistorks.

[scoobflight]

4 hours ago, UnstableNuclearHedgehog said:

Specifically, the approach into London City Airport (LCY/EGLC). It has a 5.5° glideslope.

The model will not work at London City.

 

[UnstableNuclearHedgehog]

2 minutes ago, scoobflight said:

The model will not work at London City.

 

So, to clarify, by "will not work" do you mean that it can't follow the 5.5° glideslope? 

[LecLightning56]

I have tried the London City approach with the E175 and did sort of get it to work with  a little jiggery-pokery. You are correct that it seems to be above the glideslope but in my case I found that this was rectified closer to the runway, however the final approach does require manual handling which is a little fraught on account of the vertical speed and the necessity to pull out of the descent.

Perhaps it is a little disappointing that one of the few candidate virtual airliners which can use this airport does not seem to behave adequately for this type of approach.

A little further technical elaboration as to why the feelthere model is not up to this type of approach might help the user community to learn about its limitations.

[UnstableNuclearHedgehog]

20 minutes ago, SleepyWeltonBoy said:

I have tried the London City approach with the E175 and did sort of get it to work with  a little jiggery-pokery. You are correct that it seems to be above the glideslope but in my case I found that this was rectified closer to the runway, however the final approach does require manual handling which is a little fraught on account of the vertical speed and the necessity to pull out of the descent.

Perhaps it is a little disappointing that one of the few candidate virtual airliners which can use this airport does not seem to behave adequately for this type of approach.

A little further technical elaboration as to why the feelthere model is not up to this type of approach might help the user community to learn about its limitations.

Thanks. I've always grabbed control as soon as it went high. And even then it's tricky getting back on glideslope, slowing down and then not breaking the landing gear or ending up in the Thames!

I've also found RNAV approaches could do with better documentation. The aircraft always seems to end up much too low in my experience!

[scoobflight]

22 hours ago, SleepyWeltonBoy said:

 little further technical elaboration as to why the feelthere model is not up to this type of approach might help the user community to learn about its limitations.

the simulation is based on the most common Ejets ... the real ones that fly in/out of London City of sub-varients that required changes to the planes system (both structural and the FMS).

and with the above stated the simulation is of one that feelThere had access - as each owner (ie, airline) has specification differences in systems and the FMC.

[IanA]

Having the benefit of an E175 captain in the house, and having watched me struggle into LCY, she provided me with the following suggestions which actually work very well.

I mainly fly the E190 variant, and of course you need to be sure you've got all your V-speeds configured correctly, but if you follow the steps below you can be quite successful into LCY - only exceptions I've found are when there is significant gusts, I use Active Sky for weather. This is all flown using the autopilot down to about 500-700ft.

This method uses the FPA (Flight Path Angle) function and is used often to manage the flight path in the Embraer - FPA will ONLY WORK when the target altitude is below the current altitude in the descent, so be sure to follow the steps to the letter. Resetting the altitude target at #6 , IF MISSED, will result in no descent/success...

1) Be fully configured and at the 2,000' altitude per appropriate rwy. approach charts. Speeds correct for your weight (of course!!).

2) With the AP engaged, and the ILS freq. selected/correct, center click the HDG SEL to align the heading, switch to HDG mode.

3) Select NAV radio as the NAV source. Observe the display correctly shows what you "expect" from the ILS indication (correct freq.??), you should be BELOW the G/S at this point anyway.

4) FLY managing your HDG with the HDG SEL until you are intercepting the localizer.

5) Select NAV for the Approach mode (TOP LEFT button in the HDG SEL group), IMPORTANT -> "NOT the FULL APP mode", and allow the AP to handle lateral navigation to join the LOC.

6) Reset the altitude target to whatever your choice is - this will be the LIMIT of the descent using FPA, I usually choose 500'

7) Watch the GS indicator, as soon as it moves downward select FPA and roll the FPA SEL down to about -5.1. It displays as a light blue line in the PFD.

8) Now manage the descent with the FPA control, I find if you keep it between about -4.5 - -5.4 you can generally stay close to/on the GS.

9) You should be able to fly the approach with the method with no appreciable increase in speed, over at least a dozen or more times now I've found it very acceptable.

9) Take over manually whenever you feel comfortable/confident :)

10) Enjoy a decent landing at London City :)

 

[UnstableNuclearHedgehog]

3 hours ago, IanA said:

Having the benefit of an E175 captain in the house, and having watched me struggle into LCY, she provided me with the following suggestions which actually work very well.

I mainly fly the E190 variant, and of course you need to be sure you've got all your V-speeds configured correctly, but if you follow the steps below you can be quite successful into LCY - only exceptions I've found are when there is significant gusts, I use Active Sky for weather. This is all flown using the autopilot down to about 500-700ft.

This method uses the FPA (Flight Path Angle) function and is used often to manage the flight path in the Embraer - FPA will ONLY WORK when the target altitude is below the current altitude in the descent, so be sure to follow the steps to the letter. Resetting the altitude target at #6 , IF MISSED, will result in no descent/success...

1) Be fully configured and at the 2,000' altitude per appropriate rwy. approach charts. Speeds correct for your weight (of course!!).

2) With the AP engaged, and the ILS freq. selected/correct, center click the HDG SEL to align the heading, switch to HDG mode.

3) Select NAV radio as the NAV source. Observe the display correctly shows what you "expect" from the ILS indication (correct freq.??), you should be BELOW the G/S at this point anyway.

4) FLY managing your HDG with the HDG SEL until you are intercepting the localizer.

5) Select NAV for the Approach mode (TOP LEFT button in the HDG SEL group), IMPORTANT -> "NOT the FULL APP mode", and allow the AP to handle lateral navigation to join the LOC.

6) Reset the altitude target to whatever your choice is - this will be the LIMIT of the descent using FPA, I usually choose 500'

7) Watch the GS indicator, as soon as it moves downward select FPA and roll the FPA SEL down to about -5.1. It displays as a light blue line in the PFD.

8) Now manage the descent with the FPA control, I find if you keep it between about -4.5 - -5.4 you can generally stay close to/on the GS.

9) You should be able to fly the approach with the method with no appreciable increase in speed, over at least a dozen or more times now I've found it very acceptable.

9) Take over manually whenever you feel comfortable/confident :)

10) Enjoy a decent landing at London City :)

 

Thanks very much, i'll give it a try!

[LecLightning56]

Just tried the technique recommended by the aviation professional and it works a treat! The Embraer aircraft which do actually use London City are probably all the modified variant which have spoiler deployment for the steep descent on the glideslope to control speed. Feelthere's aircraft are true to life in that, in the absence of the modification for steep approaches, they inhibit spoiler deployment at flap settings of 2 and beyond whilst airborne (but deploy automatically on touchdown without the requirement to arm for the landing).

If there was a clever way to use spoilers in the steep descent then the glideslope could potentially be captured for such descents. Interestingly, British Airways's Airbus A318s which used London City were also specially modified for spoiler activation in the steep descent. The BAE 146s, however, required manual deployment of the airbrakes for the landing.

[LecLightning56]

A question to the Feelthere development team:

If the use of FPA and selection of flightpath angle manually results in continuous tracking of the glideslope, why does the approach mode (APPR) fail to capture the glideslope angle accurately when the glideslope is alive (say, intercepting the glideslope at 2,000 feet on approach to London City Airport)?

There is a definite lag between tracking the glideslope position in the PFD and how the aircraft responds to such changes, resulting in this case in failing to capture the glideslope correctly for this approach, using APPR mode (the aircraft is always too high and above the glideslope on the descent under APPR mode as a result of this lag).

Finally, I appreciate we can never really simulate how the Embraer jets actually fly into London City, on account of the unavailability of the spoilers for the steep approach, except of course on touchdown.

[UnstableNuclearHedgehog]

On 02/04/2018 at 5:55 PM, IanA said:

Having the benefit of an E175 captain in the house, and having watched me struggle into LCY, she provided me with the following suggestions which actually work very well.

I mainly fly the E190 variant, and of course you need to be sure you've got all your V-speeds configured correctly, but if you follow the steps below you can be quite successful into LCY - only exceptions I've found are when there is significant gusts, I use Active Sky for weather. This is all flown using the autopilot down to about 500-700ft.

This method uses the FPA (Flight Path Angle) function and is used often to manage the flight path in the Embraer - FPA will ONLY WORK when the target altitude is below the current altitude in the descent, so be sure to follow the steps to the letter. Resetting the altitude target at #6 , IF MISSED, will result in no descent/success...

1) Be fully configured and at the 2,000' altitude per appropriate rwy. approach charts. Speeds correct for your weight (of course!!).

2) With the AP engaged, and the ILS freq. selected/correct, center click the HDG SEL to align the heading, switch to HDG mode.

3) Select NAV radio as the NAV source. Observe the display correctly shows what you "expect" from the ILS indication (correct freq.??), you should be BELOW the G/S at this point anyway.

4) FLY managing your HDG with the HDG SEL until you are intercepting the localizer.

5) Select NAV for the Approach mode (TOP LEFT button in the HDG SEL group), IMPORTANT -> "NOT the FULL APP mode", and allow the AP to handle lateral navigation to join the LOC.

6) Reset the altitude target to whatever your choice is - this will be the LIMIT of the descent using FPA, I usually choose 500'

7) Watch the GS indicator, as soon as it moves downward select FPA and roll the FPA SEL down to about -5.1. It displays as a light blue line in the PFD.

8) Now manage the descent with the FPA control, I find if you keep it between about -4.5 - -5.4 you can generally stay close to/on the GS.

9) You should be able to fly the approach with the method with no appreciable increase in speed, over at least a dozen or more times now I've found it very acceptable.

9) Take over manually whenever you feel comfortable/confident :)

10) Enjoy a decent landing at London City :)

 

I've just tried this myself. Seems to work rather well! Certainly the easiest approach i've made into EGLC, despite the poor visibility today!