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CL30

So, do you all....

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Try to move planes I'm order that they call for pushback? Or do you just get them moving and off the ground in any order?

I was just curious what everyone does. I keep it all organized by the order they first call. I think it adds some realism to the game, and lets you get creative with taxi instructions and hold short instructions. 

One thing that I think would be great for the future would be EDCTs, miles-in-trail, and flow control/ground delay programs. That could really make the game tough!

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Interesting question CL30.

I tend to push back in order, the only thing that will dictate a change to that is aircraft inbound to a terminal that a departure has called up from. I also "try" and depart them in some sort of order for the imaginary departure controller, such as this one is going north, I'll put one going south straight after it to gain natural separation after take off. Most of the time however my geography as to which way they will go is quite miserable and when overwhelmed just "get rid of them" as quick as possible.

Graham

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I actually got that from watching a documentary on Heathrow. That's how they can allow them to depart at such small intervals, natural separation once they leave the runway pretty much. If they went the same direction it would add time to the intervals thus causing a back up of departures.

Normally ground controller would have them sorted and pass to tower in the correct order.

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Normally, I try to keep the sequence alive on all airports, except when there are reasons to break it.

One scenario where I break the sequence is at Kennedy when there are aircraft from terminals 8 and 1 taxiing to 31L via B and I have private planes coming from the GA ramp for 31L@KE, I always let go the jets first (so they don't get stuck behind the rich guys), and when the one-percenters arrive at KE I let them go as soon as I've got the bigger jets (above 737, 321) out. It takes a little juggling, but it works. (My holding points for that scenario are short of KE on B, short of K on A with J to funnel them into sequence, sometimes additionally short of J on Y in case I need more space.) Even more tricky is the opposite direction, taking turns in using P and Q with holding points short of PE each to keep the sequence.

I must admit that I don't really care about the overall sequence at all airports with parallel departures, like Orlando, Munich (when I simultaneously use both runways for departures and arrivals), Atlanta, Phoenix, San Francisco (for the 1s). I just keep the runway-specific sequence as far as it's possible. In those cases, however, I strongly believe in load distribution and, for example, let American or United depart from Orlando's 35L, if there's backlog for 36R and crickets on 35L.

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Alright, how about realism at KLAX? In the heat of the battle does anyone taxi a plane parking on the the north side to 25R and the vice versa - a south side parker to 24L? In real life this is standard practice to avoid conflicting departure routes.

It's tough to do especially since the KLAX version we have is circa 2010 and we're missing taxiways that would make north/south taxiing much easier.   

I need to play a Tower/Tracon session one day and see what kind of chaos the tower controller inflicts on the departure controller. 🙂

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I pushback in order, and try to taxi in order but since sometimes 1 plane will push back quicker than the previous and block the taxiway 🤬 I then resort to as close as, is as good as. 

This seems to happen a lot with Atlanta, and then you can get quickly overwhelmed 😫

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2 minutes ago, crbascott said:

Alright, how about realism at KLAX? In the heat of the battle does anyone taxi a plane parking on the the north side to 25R and the vice versa - a south side parker to 24L? In real life this is standard practice to avoid conflicting departure routes.

It's tough to do especially since the KLAX version we have is circa 2010 and we're missing taxiways that would make north/south taxiing much easier.   

I need to play a Tower/Tracon session one day and see what kind of chaos the tower controller inflicts on the departure controller. 🙂

No, I don't generally, but it's something I want to work on trying. I agree that some taxiways need a bit of revising. 

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3 minutes ago, crbascott said:

Alright, how about realism at KLAX? In the heat of the battle does anyone taxi a plane parking on the the north side to 25R and the vice versa - a south side parker to 24L? 

I've had a virtual meeting with the associated virtual parties that are affected, and we have come to the decision that since we are such short staffed at LAX that only 1 controller is responsible for tower and ground operations, normal departure sequencing can be "tossed out the window" for the foreseeable future 😁

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13 minutes ago, hexzed said:

I've had a virtual meeting with the associated virtual parties that are affected, and we have come to the decision that since we are such short staffed at LAX that only 1 controller is responsible for tower and ground operations, normal departure sequencing can be "tossed out the window" for the foreseeable future 😁

Lmao love it!

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Ok another question for arrivals into parallel runway airports.

Say for example at LAX if a Southwest flight gets sequenced to 25L but its terminal is nearer 24R, do you let it land and taxi it across the airport, or change its final to 24R?

i do the latter myself, which makes for easier taxiing and less conflicts, but i was wondering what other people do, or what would be the realistic scenario?

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4 minutes ago, hexzed said:

Ok another question for arrivals into parallel runway airports.

Say for example at LAX if a Southwest flight gets sequenced to 25L but its terminal is nearer 24R, do you let it land and taxi it across the airport, or change its final to 24R?

i do the latter myself, which makes for easier taxiing and less conflicts, but i was wondering what other people do, or what would be the realistic scenario?

Since LAX arrivals are usually slammed, I just let them land and taxi across. I've got a good system worked out now to where it's pretty simple.

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I let them land and taxi across at KLAX.

As for departing on opposite sides of the airport, that's where my geography is not so good with the airport destination codes. I tend to stagger departures on alternate sides by at least 500ft to allow turning either way.

Now if we had exit gates on the strips for the next version of tower....

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1 hour ago, hexzed said:

I've had a virtual meeting with the associated virtual parties that are affected, and we have come to the decision that since we are such short staffed at LAX that only 1 controller is responsible for tower and ground operations, normal departure sequencing can be "tossed out the window" for the foreseeable future 😁

This is no dance in the park for 2 controllers (i.e., multiplayer) either. I've built a few challenge schedules on Tower_MP based on actual traffic requiring north/south taxiing and escaping penalty/collision free is impossible.

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I try to taxi them in request order but try to look at where they are at the terminal. If 2 A/C are near each other but not on adjacent gates I normally get the one closest to the runway to pushback first then clear the other to pushback. that way one is not taxiing behind the other A/C on pushback. It makes it a little quicker to get them moving.

Also in the case of MCO, where there may be several P/B requests in one terminal but a loner in another terminal, I will get this one moving irrespective of its order in the queue to keep things moving.

Kev

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7 hours ago, hexzed said:

Say for example at LAX if a Southwest flight gets sequenced to 25L but its terminal is nearer 24R, do you let it land and taxi it across the airport, or change its final to 24R?

Nah, they go for the big harbor tour (as we in HAM say). It's not that difficult, as the southern arrivals on 24R vacate either Z or AA and I send them down to C via either R or AA holding short of S or P, and the northern arrivals on 25L vacate between H4 and N and get sent down to P to cross 25R and then via B, S, D. But I admit I haven't tried crbascott's scenario, yet, which would be much easier with T going all the way from E down to A and D going down to R instead of S.

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18 minutes ago, DeltaVII said:

Nah, they go for the big harbor tour (as we in HAM say). It's not that difficult, as the southern arrivals on 24R vacate either Z or AA and I send them down to C via either R or AA holding short of S or P, and the northern arrivals on 25L vacate between H4 and N and get sent down to P to cross 25R and then via B, S, D. But I admit I haven't tried crbascott's scenario, yet, which would be much easier with T going all the way from E down to A and D going down to R instead of S.

Exact routing I use. I have southbound planes hold at T first and northbound hold at S and then D before entering north complex.

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Yeah. KLAX under northbound/southbound rules is unmanageable for me. Even with the standard T3D schedule. Unless I find a better schedule - and get a better feeling for the outbound routes for the many destinations I don't recognize the ICAO code of...

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Good topic guys. Lots of interesting views and ideas, so thanks to all.

I try and take a multi-pronged approach to keeping things moving on the tarmac ground.

A bit like 707FAN mentioned, I tend to look at pushback gate locations and then pick the lighter planes to go to an alternative runway like 9 at Boston or 17/35 at Philadelphia. Generally I find it saves me some congestion issues if can do it. Of course it is rather "seat of the pants" decision making along the way, but I find that is part of the fun to Tower3D.

Another tactic mentioned I make good use of is clearing for takeoff on intermediate taxiway connections to the major runways. For instance, in Boston, I tend to send CAFE GA planes straight out Charlie and give them a CFT on 4L pronto to get them going ASAP. Their slow speed can be a real challenge if you can't find a space to fit them in. I also send the smaller jets to 9 to split up the waiting in line for 4L takeoffs. At Kennedy, 13R/31L is so long at 14,511 ft. that I find I end up using PA, MC, MB for 13R and K, KE for 31L.

Looking forward to some more thoughts and ideas, keep it up guys.

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Well... guilty as charged. I seem to remember it entering the lexicon a few decades back. Of course, Wikipedia is always right, right? Figured it was OK along with Terminal, Ramp and Apron ya know.

Consider me chastised. ⚠️

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Excellent topic and have learnt some new ideas off some of the comments.

Always try and depart aircraft in strip order if I can and at airports with dual departure runways try and depart on the side the aircraft will turn to their destination airport.  So for say KLAX using the northern side for ASIA, European and Northern U.S. States and the Southern runways for southern U.S. States, LATAM countries etc. Doesn't always work out that way (as it doesn't in the real world!) and it can lead to some stressful sessions!

Bit easier at say KMCO where I send off the Eastern U.S. States, European and LATAM flights off the eastern runway and the rest off the western runway.

As with some of the comments before try and make use of the shorter intersection points for smaller aircraft and GA traffic at the likes of KBOS, KJFK etc.

 

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Nice discussion you started here CL30; wonder if I could continue it by asking does anybody allow for wake turbulance catagories?

I like to allow 5 miles/3000 ft when a small follows a heavy. Too hard to stay on top of though when it gets really busy, just want to get them out.

Graham

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