E175/195 v3 SP1 - Aircraft pitch during approach

[mr_ramiro]

Hi!

First of all, I'd like to congratulate Feelthere's team for developing this amazing aircraft! 

I've this aircraft installed before SP1 release, and many things has been improved, but there are things that still needs to be fixed.

I was talking about this on another post, related to the aircraft jumping during rotation. I also mentioned on that topic that during landing, the aircraft's nose falls on the ground, like and acft that has its CoG on fwd limit. Maybe this heavy nose when touching the ground also explains why the aircraft needs too much, if not, full pitch trim up (13 up) with Flaps Full during approach and landing. When using Flaps 5, about 9 to 11 up. As far as I remember, the aircraft didn't have this excessive need of pitch trim during these phases before SP1, nor this heavy nose when touching the ground. 

One thing that has been corrected was the high aircraft's pitch attitude during approach and landing. However, it seems that the aircraft's pitch is still a little bit higher; with the aircraft on landing configuration, with a FPA of -3.0 and Flaps 5, pitch should be around 4 degrees up or less. Same situation with Flaps Full, pitch required to maintain a glide path of -3 is also 5 degrees up. I don't fly this aircraft on real world, but I guess that many jet aircrafts uses lower attitude pitch angles when landing with Flaps Full compared to a degree of flap before its full extension (e.g. Boeing 737, Flaps 40 requires a pitch attitude lower than Landing with Flaps 30, Airbus A320 with Conf 3 and Conf Full), so, maybe our E-Jets needs less than 4 degrees of pitch attitude during landing. 

I'm saying the attitude required on approach based on youtube videos of real-world operations. 

All those issues were observed on E175/E195 aircrafts, on P3D V4.5 HF2, Win10 Pro 64bit.

Sending also links with landing pictures, with flaps 5 and Full.

Thanks!

https://imgur.com/a/3vyePz2

https://imgur.com/a/hpFCmpA

Edited April 5, 2020 by mr_ramiro

[sags]

In the real plane the approach pitch with flaps 5 is indeed about 5.0 to 5.5 degrees up.

With flaps full, the approach pitch should be 2.0 to 2.5 degrees up.

 

Trevor

[mr_ramiro]

Yes, I confirmed with a friend of mine who flies the real acft, the attitude for flaps full is what you said, 2 to 2.5.

However, following the speeds that are on the manual (VREF Full + 5, on E175/195), to maintain a FPA of -3.0, pitch angle is still around 5 or 6 up, and worse, with autopilot on and LNAV lateral mode and FPA vertical mode active, it won’t be able to maintain that angle, due to the pitch trim required (it reaches the limit of 13 up, as I have mentioned before), so the acft will descend with a angle steeper than -3.

What I’m doing to have a pitch attitude similar to the real aircraft, with the unreliable speed tables my friend provided me, is to consider VREF+10 for flaps 5 and VREF Icing+10 for flaps full, regardless of weather conditions

Edited April 10, 2020 by mr_ramiro

[mr_ramiro]

Hi there!

Feelthere team, please, are you aware of this issue? It has been a month without a statement from Feelthere. I read the fixed topic that you said it may take a while for our requests/doubts/issues to be answered, but a month it's not what we customers, are supposed to expect from a serious add-on development company. In addition, the price we pay for your products requires a good support team that doesn't take too long to answer their costumers complaints.

So, I'd like to ask again if you are still working on an update to fix this issue, that the pitch trim, with Flaps Full, and an approach speed of VREF Full + 5, requires full pitch trim up (13 degrees up), so that the autopilot can't maintain, while on FPA Mode, a descent angle of -3.0? Before the SP1, there were no concerns regarding the pitch trim, however, during approach, aircraft pitch were almost 10 degress up. Now this issue seems to have been partialy solved, because the aircraft pitch with Flaps Full, as Trevor said, should be about 2 to 2.5 instead of 5 or 6, but how do you explain the excess of pitch trim during approach and the heavy nose after touching down with main gears?

Caio

[Biggles2010]

I hope FeelThere have not lost interest in further development. They don't seem to appear very often.

Regarding the take off jump, that definitely needs sorting.  Trying E195 version 3 in P3D 4.5 I found that if I used +5 trim which worked realistically in v2 it produced a rapid pitch up just after lift off, at which point the pitch trim jumped of it's own accord down to +3 with a sudden change in visual perspective from an altitude of about 50 ft down to about 10 feet. This was not a stall. It was a sudden change in the view like slewing downwards.

I found that using no more than +3 trim for take off largely avoided this strange behaviour.

I recognise that Scoob has always done a great job of helping out with operating issues, but I wish FeelThere would respond to some of the points users are reporting.

This is supposed to be their support forum.

[Matty260191]

pull back slower with only a 3 trim up.

[Matty260191]

they are responding they are getting people to test stuff.

[Matty260191]

23 hours ago, mr_ramiro said:

Hi there!

Feelthere team, please, are you aware of this issue? It has been a month without a statement from Feelthere. I read the fixed topic that you said it may take a while for our requests/doubts/issues to be answered, but a month it's not what we customers, are supposed to expect from a serious add-on development company. In addition, the price we pay for your products requires a good support team that doesn't take too long to answer their costumers complaints.

So, I'd like to ask again if you are still working on an update to fix this issue, that the pitch trim, with Flaps Full, and an approach speed of VREF Full + 5, requires full pitch trim up (13 degrees up), so that the autopilot can't maintain, while on FPA Mode, a descent angle of -3.0? Before the SP1, there were no concerns regarding the pitch trim, however, during approach, aircraft pitch were almost 10 degress up. Now this issue seems to have been partialy solved, because the aircraft pitch with Flaps Full, as Trevor said, should be about 2 to 2.5 instead of 5 or 6, but how do you explain the excess of pitch trim during approach and the heavy nose after touching down with main gears?

Caio

sounds like you getting too slow before you start the descent and entering a high alpha situation

[Biggles2010]

10 hours ago, Matty260191 said:

pull back slower with only a 3 trim up.

This will mask the problem, but that is all it does. When others highlighted this, before I had tried v3 I wrongly assumed it was users overloading their systems with too high settings. In fact, on a high end system the take off jumping occurs even in a bare P3D v4.5 setup, with all sliders to the left. A takeoff pitch trim of +4 to +5 is still within the green range and yet it produces the bizarre results I described above.

I am still experimenting, but it It should not be necessary to fly the aircraft like an overloaded WW2 bomber to get a smooth takeoff. And the consequence of doing that is the autothrottle then allows a large speed overshoot in the transition to the climbout, which then needs an excessive nose high attitude to correct it, and that is bad practice.

Like others, in the descent I find it always requires an excessive amount of positive trim right through to touchdown, and even then the nose falls too quickly. 

10 hours ago, Matty260191 said:

they are responding they are getting people to test stuff.

The last response to anything was some weeks ago. I have not seen anything about people being asked to test things, particularly in regard to the trim issues.

On the positive side I find the handling in the air to be an improvement. I hope things are happening about the takeoff, descent and landing characteristics, because I really want this version to work as well as version 2.

[Matty260191]

I today looked into something and its fixed/ found the issue that needs fixing.

[mr_ramiro]

On 5/12/2020 at 3:25 PM, Matty260191 said:

sounds like you getting too slow before you start the descent and entering a high alpha situation

Well, I'm following the approach speeds that are on Feelthere's E-Jets V3 Manual. By setting this speed, the aircraft should be with a proper pitch trim, not on its top range of 13 UP. Please, have a look at my first post, on the second picture with Flaps Full, according to the "195 Landing V-Speeds Table - No icing conditions", weight of 42300 kgs aprox, VREF is 123kt, so VAPP is 128. Maybe the Slats and Flaps are not giving the correct amount of lift, and the CG, although is correctly positioned on "Fuel and Payload" menu, I'm quite sure that is fully foward. This explains the sudden pitch down movement when we touch down on the runway; this happens so fast that my counterreaction of trying to ease the nose gear touch (pulling the joystick) raises the aircraft nose again, sometimes making it fly again. During the other flight phases, I don't remember of having flight controlability issues.

[scoobflight]

1 hour ago, mr_ramiro said:

the CG, although is correctly positioned on "Fuel and Payload" menu,

review this -

 

use the EMB payload manger to change loads, not weight/COG adjustments through P3D's default menu.

[mr_ramiro]

5 hours ago, scoobflight said:

review this -

 

use the EMB payload manger to change loads, not weight/COG adjustments through P3D's default menu.

I'm using the Payload manager...

[Matty260191]

I am using the fuel and payload in sim its makes no real difference in the balance of the aircraft.

[Matty260191]

But I also have no issue with the pitch of the aircraft it behaves normally for me.

[Shom]

On 5/13/2020 at 12:34 AM, Matty260191 said:

I today looked into something and its fixed/ found the issue that needs fixing.

Not sure I understood? A potential fix in SP2?

[Matty260191]

Im not sure what they will do with it.