EGLL Runways 09L & 09R

[crbascott]

3 minutes ago, Pedantic G said:

So @WildCard, in @andredragtspeedbird example above its holding at Pattern B, not Pattern A (closer to the runway) as it should be?

I'm relatively sure this version can't handle two hold lines for a taxiway. So, all this talk about what is correct/incorrect is probably moot. Additionally, getting the developers to place hold lines exactly where they are supposed to be has been an issue since day 1 (beginning with LAX - https://forum.simflight.com/topic/83114-tower3d-pro-lax-24l-24r-taxiway-z-hold-points/ and I have plenty of other examples from by beta testing days). 

 

[WildCard]

@Pedantic G correct

@crbascott the game only uses the holding line when approaching the runway. It ignores the holding line when leaving the runway and just travels a set distance down the exiting taxiway. The only time it would stop at a holding point when exiting would be if the holding point was inside that set distance, but I can't think of any examples where it is. This could be the reason why they couldn't fix them 🙂

[Pedantic G]

Yep, that was my concern. Moving the holding point closer to the runway could screw up the exit runway distance and then cause a new set of issues! 🤦‍♂️

[WildCard]

Yes, I should also add that the game will stop the plane at the holding point when the centre of the plane reaches 100 feet from it, not when the nose of the plane approaches it. This is the same when exiting the runway, when it should actually be after the tail has passed the holding point.

[crbascott]

4 hours ago, WildCard said:

@crbascott the game only uses the holding line when approaching the runway. It ignores the holding line when leaving the runway and just travels a set distance down the exiting taxiway. The only time it would stop at a holding point when exiting would be if the holding point was inside that set distance, but I can't think of any examples where it is. This could be the reason why they couldn't fix them 🙂

Is this "set distance" static or dynamic depending on the taxiway/runway? Also, when you say "approaching the runway" are talking departures only?  I'm having a hard time applying "your logic" to the LAX screenshot in my link. 

4 hours ago, Pedantic G said:

Yep, that was my concern. Moving the holding point closer to the runway could screw up the exit runway distance and then cause a new set of issues! 🤦‍♂️

If you're mainly talking the ends of the runways, I don't see where this would be a big issue at all. And it wouldn't even be an issue if the game featured realistic exiting. But, we know that is something that can be addressed by the next version.    

[MJKERR]

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[WildCard]

2 hours ago, crbascott said:

Is this "set distance" static or dynamic depending on the taxiway/runway? Also, when you say "approaching the runway" are talking departures only?  I'm having a hard time applying "your logic" to the LAX screenshot in my link. 

The distance is static. After a aircraft lands and goes into "escape runway" mode, the next exit is calculated and a route is created. This route includes the first 500 feet of the exiting taxiway (or to the end of the taxiway if it is shorter than 500 feet). When the plane exits the runway it will travel to the end of this 500 feet and stop. This 500 feet is measured from the centreline of the runway, not from the edge of the runway, and the smaller the exit angle of the taxiway, the closer the end of the route will be to the runway centreline. ie. a taxiway at 90 degrees will end 500 feet from the runway centreline, a taxiway at a constant 30 degree angle will end 250 feet from the runway centreline.

"Approaching the runway" is any plane with a taxi route, whether it is to a terminal or to a runway, and the plane is approaching an intersection between the taxiway it is on and a runway. ie. not landing or escaping the runway.

The holding 'gate' on the taxiways that the game uses may not be in the same place as the holding line you can see on the taxiway in the game.

[Pedantic G]

3 hours ago, MJKERR said:

N1, N2E, N2W, N3 and N4
If not, which ones?

Nevermind....I meant where the aircraft Holds on the taxiway, not which taxiways have hold points. 

Think this subject has been done to death now with the recent postings on the logic in the game!

Thanks all for the comments. It's up to FT now to see what they can do.

G

[WildCard]

Reading back over this thread, I thought I'd emphasise one point that I believe @FeelThere needs to fix in a Service Pack as it makes the airport completely unusable for realistic operations and would be considered a release stopping bug in any professional software product. The runways need to be extended to include the displaced thresholds so that planes can take-off from those intersections. This has been done for every previous airport, including TIST where almost half of runway 28 is displaced threshold.

On 12/15/2020 at 3:19 AM, Pedantic G said:

Not sure if FT would do a SP to amend this as in theory they have started the Runway 09R at N8 which is where the bold lines for the runway start on the google picture

The runways include where the dotted lines are, this is the displaced threshold and is always part of the runway. In theory and reality they have not started the runways in the correct place, they have instead only included the LDA (Landing Distance Available) portion of the runway. The runway must include the full TORA (Take off Run Available).

[Pedantic G]

3 hours ago, WildCard said:

Reading back over this thread, I thought I'd emphasise one point that I believe @FeelThere needs to fix in a Service Pack as it makes the airport completely unusable for realistic operations and would be considered a release stopping bug in any professional software product. The runways need to be extended to include the displaced thresholds so that planes can take-off from those intersections. This has been done for every previous airport, including TIST where almost half of runway 28 is displaced threshold.

The runways include where the dotted lines are, this is the displaced threshold and is always part of the runway. In theory and reality they have not started the runways in the correct place, they have instead only included the LDA (Landing Distance Available) portion of the runway. The runway must include the full TORA (Take off Run Available).

As I said before Daniel, already raised with FT for a potential SP. 

It's up to them now.

[WildCard]

On 1/6/2021 at 6:09 PM, Pedantic G said:

As I said before Daniel, already raised with FT for a potential SP. 

It's up to them now.

I know, I made the post based on the "squeaky wheel" theory 🙂

[MJKERR]

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[Pedantic G]

3 hours ago, MJKERR said:

Equally, the routes to N1-N3 and A1-A3 do not work correctly

Can you clarify this comment...Are you referring to hold points on these taxiways to allow aircraft behind to pass or are you referring to something else?

[MJKERR]

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[andredragt]

17 hours ago, MJKERR said:

Runway 27R departures - 
It should be possible to send pairs of aircraft to each of A1, A2 and A3, a queue of two in each giving six aircraft in total
However the first aircraft to arrive then blocks all the routes, and subsequent arrivals queue behind, as a result there is one queue

Strange... I seem to remember that they actually don't block each other, but I mostly send the heavies to A1 (and M4 short of M1) and the non heavies to A1 and A2, so it maybe happening with Heavies on A1 and A2

17 hours ago, MJKERR said:

Runway 27L departures -
Similar as above the first aircraft to arrive at either N2E, N2W or N3 then blocks the routes

They block taxiway Alpha (as I mentioned somewhere). For N2W, N2E and N1 I just send planes to txw B by AB7 or K1

[DeltaVII]

My EGLL strategy is this:

[MJKERR]

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[Lewisboy]

4 hours ago, DeltaVII said:

My EGLL strategy is this:

This.... this exactly. I get annoyed that the system regularly inserts a "via G" command when I clearly state "via B" - but that's another conversation! 

[FeelThere_Vic]

We are following this topic.

 

Vic

[Pedantic G]

3 hours ago, MJKERR said:

Default arrival awaiting taxi to terminal command, sent a B747 to A11, but it would not pass and was blocked on the runway!

Not sure I understand this to understand the bug/issue to add to the fix list?

What default arrival was waiting where to taxi?

B747 to A11 but would not pass. Where would it not pass and got stuck on the runway?

If you have a screenshot, even better

Thanks

[MJKERR]

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[Pedantic G]

2 minutes ago, MJKERR said:

Example 
AA01 (B772) Runway 27R Cleared to land
It then vacates off runway at A10E, default
AA01 Taxi to Terminal
Next arrival
BA01 (B744) Runway 27R Cleared to land
BA01 Exit at taxiway A11
The B744 then slows on 27R and cannot pass the B772, for about 30 seconds until the B772 has moved further into taxiway A

Cool, thanks.

Thought that was what you meant but just wanted to confirm it was the exit stop point on A10E causing the issue if it was a Heavy passing a Heavy