Potential EGLL SP

[Pedantic G]

All,

As there seems to have been a fresh batch of comments on EGLL posted I have been discussing with FT the potential for a SP.  IF their development schedule allows for this once their next airport is released it may be looked at but this will depend on the number of issues to be addressed and the time to fix and test them.

To get the ball rolling I have compiled a list below as to comments and feedback since release and what I feel is their criticality that impacts game play at present.

1.       HIGH IMPACT - RUNWAY 09L and 09R Threshold to be fixed to allow realistic take off operations for these runways (Andredragt, Wildcard et al) NB: Landing points to remain where they are

2.      HIGH IMPACT - Rename the taxiway onto 09R at the end as it should be N11 replacing YA2 and Y1. (Lewis Boy)

3.      HIGH IMPACT - Exit hold point on A10E needs moving closer to Taxiway Alpha to enable landing on 27R to pass to A11 etc without blocking runway (MJKERR)

4.      UPDATED HIGH IMPACT - Hold points for 27R/09L and 27L/09R need moving closer to Runways to enable Aircraft taxing behind to pass on Alpha and avoid congestion (Andredragt, Wildcard, MJKERR et al).  Priority here is to allow for movement along taxiway A and some of the hold points at the end of 27L at N2E, N2W, N3, N4E and N4W should allow for some forward movement nearer the runway. 27R at A5 and A4 are the priorities testing this morning to allow passage on Alpha. The hold points at A1 - A3 seem to be where they are on the google ground map and are at least workable as there are workarounds already posted so these may need to stay where they are.

5.  (NOW NO LONGER REQUIRED) - Misalignment between S1 and N1 (northbound) for aircraft from Terminal 4 making their way to Runway 27 (MJKERR).

5a.    NEW LOW IMPACT - New link taxi from N1 to S1 of possible to link across 27L

6.      LOW IMPACT - Tower/Ground speech feedback where some people hear "Detroit" to be investigated (rmcglew and cwalfy1)

Anything major that I have missed? 

No promises on this but I will do what I can people

[MJKERR]

As Tower 3D EGLL was released in December 2020 I was waiting a couple of months before obtaining it myself

I have been reading others issues with this, and initially was disappointed when compared to OMDB
OMDB is not perfect, I only have two problems with it (exit runway and gate blocking errors)

I have very good real world experience of operations at EGLL
I thoroughly enjoyed Tower 2011, and heavily modified it
However, it was left behind by older aircraft

So it is time to move on to Tower 3D EGLL
My initial tests were actually very positive
So far I have only used Runway 27L/27R operations

Runway 27L departures / 27R arrivals - 
I also ran into the problem with only one aircraft at the hold points nearest to taxiway A
However, after some trial and error I managed to resolve this, and at one point had eight aircraft at the hold point
I then compared to a photo from Summer 2019, and it looks almost correct
Aircraft waiting at A10E, can impact following arrivals sent to A11
Aircraft asked to exit to taxiway A10W ignore this request and exit at A10E

Runway 27L arrivals / 27R departures - 
I have only tested this once 
I had severe problems with the hold points A1 - A3
I will therefore need to come back to this

Taxiway S1 to N1 / N2E -
Initially I thought there was a misalignment across runway 27L, between S1 and N1
This is the route in Tower 2011
It was quite difficult to find a video, but the route between S1 and N2E is actually correct
The route N1 to S1 is often used by aircraft heading to Terminal 4, as this allows two or more aircraft to queue

ADIRS (Runway 27R arrivals) -
I am finding the landing aircraft are initially very difficult to click on
As soon as they appear I move the mouse pointer over them, then the aircraft moves considerably to the left
In some cases I have to pause the program in order to select the aircraft

Voice direction -
I used this technique in OMDB
Say the callsign and the view focuses on the selected aicraft
However, in EGLL it seems to struggle with the Speedbird callsign
The callsign appears to be accepted, but about half the time nothing happens 
A good example is BA64, speedbird six four
When I saw this it initially appears at BAW640, but when I release the key it corrects to BAW64, but the view does not update

I am in the process of modifying my Summer 2019 timetable from Tower 2011 into Tower 3D
This presents an issue as there are some arrivals (04:00 to 06:00) before the first departure (06:00)
In the Real Traffic schedule these flights start appearing, but in real life most of these would already have landed
There is a simple solution, by removing all the arrivals before 05:30, to allow for some being late...

[MJKERR]

1 hour ago, Pedantic G said:

1.       HIGH IMPACT - RUNWAY 09L and 09R Threshold to be fixed to allow realistic take off operations for these runways (Andredragt, Wildcard et al) NB: Landing points to remain where they are

Runway 09L / 09R operations -
It is very rare to get 09L departures,as there are only two holding points
There are handover points, COBRA, DINGO, RABIT, SNAPA, but due to the limitations this is only used if there is an issue with 09R
As a result it can restrict operations at Terminals 5A and 5B, hence why it is avoided
From memory this was only used once in 2019

I would need to test this, but it looks to be correct to me

[Pedantic G]

1 hour ago, MJKERR said:

Taxiway S1 to N1 / N2E -
Initially I thought there was a misalignment across runway 27L, between S1 and N1
This is the route in Tower 2011
It was quite difficult to find a video, but the route between S1 and N2E is actually correct
The route N1 to S1 is often used by aircraft heading to Terminal 4, as this allows two or more aircraft to queue

Ok thanks. Will remove from the fix list.

[MJKERR]

2 hours ago, Pedantic G said:

Ok thanks. Will remove from the fix list.

Both taxiways exist
Ideally S1 - N1 is required for 09L arrivals

As above
Tower 2011 only has S1 - N1
Tower 3D only has S1 - N2E

[Pedantic G]

2 hours ago, MJKERR said:

Both taxiways exist
Ideally S1 - N1 is required for 09L arrivals

As above
Tower 2011 only has S1 - N1
Tower 3D only has S1 - N2E

 

No action needed as N1 is on there for 09L arrivals. Tested it. Just say vacate Runway left onto N1 and it works. It also works for N2E and S1.

Have checked N2W, N3, N4E. N4W, S4E and S5E and they all work as well for 09L arrivals. S3 does not nor should it looking at the ground map as its seems to be one way across S3 to N3.

Will see if they will extend N1 to S1 but not sure that would work as may effect the line up om 27L from N1 so may not be possible. IF they put it in it may have to be something like S1N or something like that to link up

* and before anyone pedantic comments I know BA don't use Terminal 4 now (well they did years ago before T5 was built!). Its just there for testing purposes! 🙃

[crbascott]

3 hours ago, Pedantic G said:

and before anyone pedantic comments

Oh don’t worry G, you’ll always be Captain Pedantic to me. 🤣

[MJKERR]

9 hours ago, Pedantic G said:

No action needed as N1 is on there for 09L arrivals.

It looks like you have performed a test on 09R arrivals, not 09L arrivals
Some aircraft on their way from 09L avoid taxiway L, N3, S2
Instead they use taxiway A, N1, S1
This keeps N2E vacant for aborted takeoffs

[Pedantic G]

16 hours ago, MJKERR said:

It looks like you have performed a test on 09R arrivals, not 09L arrivals

Yep meant 09R arrivals and understand the requirement for 09L arrivals and routing logic👍

Have added the fix to connect S1 and N1 with say taxiway "S1N" not that anything is using T4 these days!

Thanks

[MJKERR]

39 minutes ago, Pedantic G said:

Have added the fix to connect S1 and N1 with say taxiway "S1N" not that anything is using T4 these days

I have the following in my terminal file, summer 2019 schedule

Terminal_4A: AFL,AFR,AMC,AZA,KLM,LZB,TAR,TUA,UZB
Terminal_4B: AHY,AMX,ASL,BBC,CES,CSN,DAH,ELY,ETD,GFA,HVN,KAC,KAL,KQA,KZR,MAS,MAU,OMA,QTR,RAM,RBA,ROT,SVA
Terminal_Cargo1: BCS,QAC
Terminal_Cargo2: ABW,CPC,ESC,KCA,QAC,SQC
Terminal_VIP: QAF

[Pedantic G]

I know all that but I believe that T4 is closed currently until further notice due to the pandemic but on the plus side plenty of cargo but let's keep this debate to physical airport changes now.

Thanks

[MJKERR]

I have had this happen twice now
Terminal 3, Stand 357
Aircraft routed to Runway 27L
The pushback is excessive and the aircraft ends up off the taxiway, between taxiways A and B

[Pedantic G]

All, I need to bring this topic to a conclusion by the end of tomorrow to get the potential fixes to FT for review and hopefully developer scheduling.

Thanks for the input so far and I will update the posting at the start of this posting with what I send to FT for their review once sent.

For info, as an update on point 4 HIGH IMPACT - Hold points for 27R I have been carrying out some tests on the A1- A3 taxiways for feed into the start of 27R in the last couple of days, with some input from another couple of well known forum contributors, and will not proposing any changes to this as it works pretty well with respect to the known game issues on aircraft proximity warnings, aircraft sizes etc.  You can  "stack" aircraft here fairly accurately with careful planning and controlling.

The hold points are roughly where they should be and the only real issue was that I think that the A3 Hold Point should actually go back slightly as when given line up clearance to an aircraft on A2, this did not move as a proximity warning stopped it moving forward due to a conflict with the aircraft waiting on A3. This only impacts where you have a heavy at both hold points but needs to be addressed.

[Pedantic G]

30 minutes ago, MJKERR said:

I have had this happen twice now
Terminal 3, Stand 357
Aircraft routed to Runway 27L
The pushback is excessive and the aircraft ends up off the taxiway, between taxiways A and B

Thanks, I will add a card to check the pushback release points in the gates in this section backing onto Bravo

[MJKERR]

5 hours ago, Pedantic G said:

 

On 3/23/2021 at 3:18 PM, MJKERR said:

Runway 27L arrivals / 27R departures - 
I have only tested this once 
I had severe problems with the hold points A1 - A3
I will therefore need to come back to this

For info, as an update on point 4 HIGH IMPACT - Hold points for 27R I have been carrying out some tests on the A1- A3 taxiways for feed into the start of 27R in the last couple of days, with some input from another couple of well known forum contributors, and will not proposing any changes to this as it works pretty well with respect to the known game issues on aircraft proximity warnings, aircraft sizes etc.  You can  "stack" aircraft here fairly accurately with careful planning and controlling.

The hold points are roughly where they should be and the only real issue was that I think that the A3 Hold Point should actually go back slightly

I have now completed a few tests on Runway 27R departures
Once I was aware of the restrictions it seems to work as expected

The issue you found with the A3 holding point is due to a controller experience issue
It is highly unlikely a B747 would be sent to A3 via taxiway A, the preferred route is taxiway B
This then keeps A4 free for aircraft arriving along taxiway A
Equally, it would be rare to have more than three aircraft holding at each of A1, A2, and A3, as this would back up beyond TITAN and SATUN

[MJKERR]

Successful test with holding points A1 to A4
This is what it should look like
Example, runway out of use for inspection, all aircraft to hold
It would be very rare to have that many aircraft holding
The only issue I had was trying to get an aircraft to queue behind BAW832 on A3, this route seems quite restrictive as it needs to use B, M2, A, but it was always rejected
It may be used by an aircraft from a stand nearer to runway 27L, and thus arriving past AB6 (link 28)

[MJKERR]

Final test for operations, Runway 09L / 09R

Agreed, the holding points for departures from runway 09R are required
The details do not appear in the flight strip, so had to continually click in the aircraft to make sure they were routed correctly
Y1 -> N11
N10
S11

Similar to the holding points for runway 27L adjacent from taxiway A
Aircraft holding at N8 and N7 block passing aircraft on taxiway A

As you can see, it looks quite messy at N8 and N7, as these aircraft cannot pass

[Pedantic G]

1 hour ago, MJKERR said:

I am not sure if this is an issue with Tower 3D or EGLL
I noticed the wind is in the wrong direction for this operation, and then aircraft were refusing to pushback

Tower 3D default (I guess not calm) but if you get this message you need to switch runway operations. Nothing I can get fixed

[crbascott]

@MJKERRThe weather is “random” regardless of the runway operations you choose. So I wouldn’t necessarily call this a T!3DP issue either. The devs would say it is working by design. 

[MJKERR]

2 hours ago, Pedantic G said:

Tower 3D default (I guess not calm) but if you get this message you need to switch runway operations. Nothing I can get fixed

Yes, the wind has been in this easterly direction every time
This is the whole point of operations in runway 09L / 09R, when the wind is westerly
I will check the wind on commencement, and see if it is correct
If not, then close and restart

[crbascott]

35 minutes ago, MJKERR said:

Yes, the wind has been in this easterly direction every time
This is the whole point of operations in runway 09L / 09R, when the wind is westerly
I will check the wind on commencement, and see if it is correct
If not, then close and restart

Just select Clear for the Forecast and you'll have calm winds allowing you to choose whatever runway setup you want.  

[MJKERR]

17 minutes ago, crbascott said:

Just select Clear for the Forecast and you'll have calm winds allowing you to choose whatever runway setup you want.  

That is what I have always been using
It caught me out on the final test of EGLL
I had to stop as aircraft would not pushback and then started getting Go Around on arrivals

[crbascott]

7 minutes ago, MJKERR said:

That is what I have always been using
It caught me out on the final test of EGLL
I had to stop as aircraft would not pushback and then started getting Go Around on arrivals

I've never seen the Clear setting produce winds of more than 2-3 knots. 

If you are definitely using Clear and not Random, then are the weather definitions defined at the airport level? Is Clear at KLAX below 3 knots and at EGLL at 10-15 knots?

Unfortunately, there is no information in the manual regarding the main menu or settings screens. So, who knows the method to the madness.

Personally, I want to be able to setup the game with weather that allows me to define the runway configuration of my choosing. If the limited weather options available doesn't allow me to do that, then I would consider this a bug. And, again, if this is controlled at the airport level I think it needs to be tweaked.

@Pedantic G, thoughts?

[Pedantic G]

8 hours ago, crbascott said:

, thoughts?

The ability to set up and input the weather/wind etc at the start of each session was on the "wishlist" from memory ideally linked to some sort of real world real time package like some of the leading FS games.

I think this has been raised before but the arrow in the Command Panel in the game appears to be facing the wrong direction it relation to the specified wind direction (Thought the arrow head should point into the wind)? This is showing wind at 10 knots at 296 degrees which if have not forgotten my school education (which was many many years ago) would indicate that its blowing 10knots FROM the WEST to EAST and thus if selecting 09L (or 09R) would be a tail wind above the safe threshold, hence the inbuilt game warning and you should switch to a 27L/27R take off landing/takeoff set up (into the wind)

Not sure if there is the possibility to define at airport level specific settings for each airport for wind parameters but will raise this on the to do list to for the developer allocated to check and maybe turn down the "average" setting for the the wind speed. This may drive settings for other the Stormy, Random etc. Might just be coincidence but as the predominant average wind direction in the UK is prevailing winds from the West maybe there is specific airport setting capability for realism 🤷‍♂️

Will raise a card for the developer to double check specific airport issue in the final list I send FT.

[DeltaVII]

9 hours ago, crbascott said:

Is Clear at KLAX below 3 knots and at EGLL at 10-15 knots?

Remember - we're talking about England... 😁