Bob Church
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Posts posted by Bob Church
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Hi BaD CrC,
Check the "Sensitivities and Null Zones" dialog in Flight Sim for the Quad. FS sets one of the axes to 0% sensitivity. FS will still assign it, but it won't move anything and FSUIPC can't see it. Should be Max Sensitivity and Min Null Zone on all 6 axes. Watch the Sensitivities and Null Zones screen, it only shows 3 axes at a time but there are some (not-too-obvious) scroll bars to get to the rest.
You might want to drop by my site, look on the File Downloads page and find a file called CMNOTE02.ZIP. It has a WordPad .DOC file in it about setting up the Quad, might be helpful.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Peter (Hayes),
>> This correspondent raised some good points and I have raised the following questions with Bob Church and the ones he didn't answer I have posted here to get your opinion. <<
I thought I'd covered them, my apologies if it wasn't clear. It's really pretty straightforward. The numbering scheme is as Pete says, programmers start with zero, regular folks tend to start with one. You just have to make allowances and understand which system you're involved with.
>> Should the joystick settings in the fs9.cfg be EXACTLY the same as those settings in the devices.cfg, if not will that "confuse" FSUIPC? <<
As I said at the Hangar, my experiments with FS2K2 indicate that the settings in Devices.cfg are the default settings for the types of controllers that FS recognizes. When you go into the the FS Controls Assignments dialog and click "Reset Defaults" for a controller, the joystick-related entries in FS2002.CFG (and I'm presuming FS9.CFG works the same) seem to be cleared entirely and FS works using the settings in Devices.cfg.
If it doesn't have a specific entry for the controller type, then it falls back on the "Generic" sections in Devices.cfg. When you make an assignment using the FS Controls Assignments dialog, that assignment is entered into FS2002.CFG (FS9.CFG) and will override any assignment that was made as a result of the default settings that came from Devices.cfg originally. You should be able to check this yourself by just examining FS9.CFG. If you do, I'd appreciate hearing whether it is operating as I describe for FS9, too. It will save me writing all these "disclaimers". You can add entries to Devices.cfg if you need to. Look at the section names that are there for the format. The name that you use has to match exactly the controller name that appears in the Windows Game Controllers applet. Actually, I find making the settings in Devices.cfg to be easier than the CFG file since you can use any FS command there, see Pete's Controls Documents, FS will never delete Devices.cfg so you can modify the settings and not have to start from scratch if you pick a bad one, and you can always get back to your basic configuration by just hitting "Reset Defaults" for the controller in the FS Controls Assignments dialog.
>> What is the purpose of the settings in a) fs9.cfg and b)devices.cfg? Why do we need both? <<
See the above.
>> Does allocating new settings in FS2004 via Assignments put these new values in the devices.cfg, fs9.cfg or both? <<
As far as I can tell, Devices.cfg is a static file, FS never modifies it. It's just to store a set of default settings for the various controllers.
AXIS_EVENT_00 is the X axis, 01 is the Y axis, 02 is the Z axis, 03 is the XRotation axis, 04 is the YRotation axis, and 05 is the ZRotation axis. I suspect that 06 and 07 are Slider 0 and Slider 1 if they're recognized (the Pro Pedals entry in Devices.cfg that you mention would seem to indicate that they are), but I haven't verified that.
The ordering on the Throttle Quad is slightly different. The X, Y, Z, R, U, V designations used there correspond to X, Y, Z, ZRotation, YRotation, XRotation respectively. Flight Sim doesn't really care which axis you assign to what function, though the swapping of the positions for the XRotation and ZRotation axes does move things around if you just use the defaults. You can simply reassign them in FS to get them to line up if you need to, though, or you can swap the R and V designations in the Control Manager map if you'd rather do it that way. The reason for the swap is historical. In ZRotation is the sensible choice for Rudders, and Windows 2000/Windows XP actually pay attention to those designation. Windows 98 did not pay attention and normally sims just took the 4th axis as being the rudder. Windows 98 will not allow a 5th and 6th axis unless axes 1 through 4 are filled, so the only way to resolve the situation across all the OS versions is to arrange the axes as X, Y, Z, ZRotation, YRotation, XRotation. That gives ZRotation to the later sims that use the descriptors, yet still holds the rudder axis in the 4th position for earlier sims that don't.
>> Do they have anything to do with sensitivity settings in FS2004? <<
Yes, that's all they are. The result of the Sensitivity slider settings in the FS Sensitivity and Null Zone screen.
>> Does the minus value indicate that the reverse box is ticked in FS2004? <<
Yes.
>> In the AXIS_NULL: Do the numbers mean anything? <<
They set the size of the Null Zone. The Null Zone sliders in the FS Sensitivity and Null Zone dialog set them.
>> Sometimes the values for a particular function are duplicated in the devices.cfg file and you have two different AXIS_EVENT_## numbers assigned to the same function in FS2004. (This is seen in a CH Products devices.cfg for a twin engine set up) <<
The duplicate assignment for the pedals is simply historical. Some older ProPedal versions used different axis descriptors for the rudder axis, the new ones use the Z axis. Microsoft is just covering both versions by doubling up on the assignment. Only one will be used since it will never be the case that both axes are present.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Big Al,
As long as they're not going to 0, it's not a problem. You're looking at the data going into the calibration routine so calibration won't change the values in the Raw Data display, but the routines will set the output data to 0 at full forward. So long as the values in the detent aren't sitting on 255, then the two endpoints should be aligned with calibration.
I'm assuming you're not using a map with the Control Manager, just running it in Direct Mode. That being the case, look on the "Throttle Settings" tab (it's at the top part of the Calibration screen) and make sure the Max values are 255 and the Min Values are 0. Don't forget to hit "Apply" if you change them. The Detent settings should be 255 if you just want it to go to min throttle at the detent, but if you're trying to use the "behind the detent" area for reverse thrust, etc. they'll need to be set to something less than 255. 240 seems to work well. For tracking the main thing is that they be equal. Also, check that the Sensitivity in Flight Sim is set to maximum and that the Null Zone in Flight Sim is set to minimum.
Run through those and see if it helps at all. If not, I don't know. A little "non-tracking" is probably normal. Pots always have a little non-linearity and calibration can only match things up at the endpoints, so they can drift apart between the full back and full forward positions if one pot goes a little one way while the other pot goes the other way. I suspect that real throttles do that, too. If it's really too far out to use, though, you might want to talk to CH and see if they can do something with it.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Big Al,
In the CH Utility, does the Raw Data display show the values going to 0 at full forward? If they do, try pulling them back together until both levers are showing something above 0 (even 1) when it asks you to click at the full forward position during calibration. Sometimes the levers go to 0 a little before they hit full forward. If the 0 value shows up at different lever positions for two levers it can make them hard to sync like that. It doesn't matter that the values are the same, but they shouldn't go to zero unless it happens just as the lever hits the forward stop. They should be at 255 in the detents, either, but I don't think I've ever seen that happen anyway.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hello Angelo,
>> Thanks for that link butthe doc was unable to open so I still need help <<
Odd. I just downloaded it, unzipped it, and then opened it with WordPad just fine here. Maybe the file got corrupted in download? Did it seem like the unzip process went okay? Did WordPad say anything about the .DOC file when you tried to open it after the unZip? Maybe the file got corrupted in download somehow? I'm not sure what else it might be.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hello Angelo,
I don't know about the pitch trim/autopilot, but for the throttle you might want to drop by my website and look on the "File Downloads" page for CMNOTE02.ZIP. It has a WordPad .DOC file in it on setting up the CH Quad with FSUIPC, might be some help.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Pete,
>> This restriction may be removed in the USB gear <<
Yes. Alll the buttons are independent with any of the CH USB controllers.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Luca,
One other note. You don't mention what sort of yoke you're using, but if it's got trim wheels like the CH yokes, make sure they're centered before you calibrate. If they're very far off-center, you can end up with a large increase in sensitivity on one side of the mid-position or the other after you calibrate.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Al,
If you're using the CM, one thing that might help is the way you calibrate. When it tells you to push the levers all the way forward, do that. Then look and see if any of them show "0" in the Raw Data display at that point. If any of them do, pull those back a little until they show "1" or "2" or so. Next, note the lever that's the furthest back and pull the other levers back until they line up with that one physically before you click to register the calibration point. You could probably pull this off in the Windows calibration screen if you looked at the raw data value, too, but you'd need to do them one at a time.
If none of the levers goes to "0" at full forward, then there's nothing to be gained from all this, just calibrate as normal.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi PiperArrow4,
Pete's right, the CH Hangar is a good site for CH info, but that's not really mine. I did do an article on setting up the Quad with or without FSUIPC and with or without the Control Manager. It's on the "Files" page on my website, http://www.stickworks.com. Look for CMNOTE02.ZIP, there's a WordPad .DOC file in the zip that gives some tips on how to set it up and get it all to work.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi James,
>> **Now my fundamental question: if I purchase an USB throttle (such as CH Throttle), will I be able to use at the same time yoke+pedals on gameport and throttle on usb?** <<
It will work fine in Flight Simulator, though it can be a problem with some other sims, especially the older ones, since it will show up as another joystick. Flight Simulator will let you assign to multiple joysticks, but older sims that only recognize "Joystick #1" will either see only the stick or they'll see only the throttle and will ignore the others.
If you do use it in Flight Sim, you'll need to go to the Control Assignments screen in FS and set the assignments as you want them. The throttle handle itself should default to throttle, but the microstick will end up on X and Y and FS will default those to Ailerons and Elevators so you'll need to reassign those. You also probably want to clear the slew settings for the throttle or things can get a little confusing.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi James,
>> Now I know that Thrustmaster did not make XP drivers for the Attack Throttle and it's not supposed to work, but is there a way I can make it work, through FSUIPC? (Yoke+pedals connected to the Attack Throttle and Attack Throttle to the computer gameport) <<
No. The only drivers for the Attack Throttle were VxDs written for Win95. XP won't load VxDs, and without drivers nothing can talk to the AT. It sent serial data down the button lines, the drivers had to read and decode that in real time, it's not anything FSUIPC would be able to deal with. I am sure about this, I wrote the drivers for the original TM back in '96 and it was difficult then to get them to work given the way the timing was set up. In todays systems where the bus is so much more heavily used, I would be surprised if drivers could be made to work at all even if someone wanted to take the time to do it.
Anyway, not really much help but maybe it will save you some frustration.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Dave,
If the pedals are USB and you're using the Control Manager, you could do it easily enough. If they're analog pedals or you don't want to use the Control Manager for whatever reason, then Rob's offer of a gauge might be the easiest thing to do.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Freo,
>> I have just purchased the CH Throttle quadrant, and am having great difficulty setting it up for reverse thrust... <<
You might want to drop by my web site, look on the "Files" page (there's a button up just below the main banner that will get you there) and look for a file called CMNOTE02.ZIP. It's got a WordPad .DOC file in it that talks about setting the Quad up with and without FSUIPC. Might be some help.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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The keyboard type would make a difference. PS2/AT keyboards sent one character at a time as serial data, so the keys had to line up in order. With USB, it just sends a report that contains generally as many as 6 keys as well as the Left and Right Shift, Alt, and Control states. USB keyboard don't autorepeat, either. The system phonies up an autorepeat but all the USB keyboard does is to send a report with the keys that are pressed. When you release a key, it sends another report that lists the keys that are still pressed, none if that's the case. Anyway, the USB keyboard drivers in Windows should deal with the simultaneous keys okay, though some sims, Falcon and LOMAC for example, will choke on them.
Anyway, if it works, that's all that matters. :)
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Glenn,
Ah. I don't know if you can really get it to work with a scanned keyboard matrix setup. I was thinking you were using something that accepted the button inputs individually, one of those little keyboard modules maybe. If I understand you correctly, you've got the second resistor and the capacitor in parallel across the switch. That will probably delay it a bit, but if the cap gets too large it's probably just going to act like the switch is closed. The strobe that goes to one side of the matrix is going to pass right through it.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi Glenn,
PMJI, it sounds like what you've got a keystroke generator of some sort and that you're trying to program CTL-E on the "Keys" tab in FSUIPC to send an FS command rather than to program a joystick button on the "Buttons" tab to send CTL-E, and that the RC circuit is an attempt to delay the closure of the "E" circuit so that the "CTL" circuit closes first. Yes?
If so, what are you using to send the keystrokes? If it's electronic, chances are the R in the RC circuit is just setting up a divider circuit, there's a good chance that the signal input isn't getting to ground (or the positive rail depending on how it's set up). Maybe going way down with the R value to get it closer to the rail, and then way up with the C value to hold the time delay would do it, but without knowing what the input circuit looks like it's just a shot in the dark.
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Hi John,
>> Here is another question: When moving the levers for throttles and props the from detent forward toward max there is a fair amount of physical lever movement, maybe 10 - 15 degrees before any associated movement is seen on the panel's throttle graphic. Q: Is this normal? What settings should I tweak to see a more immediate response? <<
If you're using the CM in Mapped Mode, there's a "Deadzone" setting on the right half of the screen when you're programming that axis. That sets a width around the detent where no action takes place. If you're in Direct Mode, no map running, then there's a tab at the top of the calibration dialog titles "Throttle Settings" which has the same sort of deadzone setting. The difference is that the setting on the tab is for Direct Mode, the one in the Axis Dialog goes along with the Map. They default to "4", but you can try dropping them down. They can go lower to the point that you start to see "out-of-detent" behavior before you're out of the detent. Usually, it's that the two detent buttons start getting unstable that says you've gone too far. Also, the two center values in FSUIPC set a deadzone around that same area, and that is likely to add to the deadzone that the CM puts in. It could result in the thing requiring a bit of movement before it registered with FS. When I was doing the setup for the article for when the CM was present, I didn't need to set a deadzone in FSUIPC, the two center values were the same. I just let the CM deadzone handle it. Either one should work, but the CM values do affect the detent buttons so cutting that to zero probably won't work too well.
The panel graphic itself does seem a little "laggy" to me sometimes but it does respond. The throttle puts out 256 steps (more or less) of resolution, but the panel graphic undoubtedly moves a lesser number of pixels, e.g. one pixel is two or three (or maybe more) increments on the throttle, it's not going to want to move immediately, though I'd expect that that effect is fairly small. Other than that, I can't think of anything that would cause it to happen. Does any of that sound like it might explain what you're seeing?
THANKS again for your help and HAPPY NEW YEAR.
You're certainly welcome, John, and a Happy New Year to you too!
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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Did you check the Sensitivities in the Flight Sim sensitivities dialog? FS has a tendency to set them to zero. It will still let you assign them, and since they are actually working the CM calibration/test panel will see them, but they get set to zero before FSUIPC gets a peek at them
- Bob
The StickWorks
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>> Also, in FS9, i am assigning some of the buttons to things like - Autothrottle ser, and Altimiter set etc and they simply dont want to work! Could it be that i am using the PMDG aircraft and it doesnt like it? <<
There was one report of the light toggles actually toggling the lights but the switch graphic not changing position. Otherwise, without the Control Manager drivers, the TQ looks like a 6-axis/12-button joystick and you should be able to check the button operation in the Windows Game Controllers test applet. If the buttons work there, the TQ is doing what it should and the problem is either something in the aircraft as you suggested or perhaps in the assignment itself.
- Bob
The StickWorks
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You're most welcome, Rune! I'm glad they were some help!
Best regards,
- Bob
The StickWorks
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For anyone that might be interested, I've posted an updated version of CMNote02, the article about setting up reverse thrust with the CH Throttle Quad. The updated version fixes some errors and expands on some areas, particularly the setup in FSUIPC. Look for CMNOTE02.ZIP on the "Files" page on my web site if you want to take a look.
- Bob
The StickWorks
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As far as I can tell it's not really a calibration issue. The Control Manager will let you set it to produce basically any value that a joystick of the same range can normally provide and you can set the values that it will produce at the endpoints and at the detent. It will move linearly between those points. I just couldn't find any provision in Flight Simulator, at least the later versions, that allowed for an axis to control reverse thrust directly. If control of the reverse thrust from a standard external axis was possible the Control Manager would be able to do it, but I never could get the slightest indication that it wanted to reverse without using FSUIPC. I posted an article on what I was doing. It's a zipped WordPad DOC file on the "Files" page at my web site. Look for CMNOTE02.ZIP if you're interested.
- Bob
The StickWorks
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GMMoes,
It really does sound like something with the hardware. The drivers that actually talk to the pedals and collect the data, even with the Control Manager installed, are the standard Windows drivers. The CM just uses the data they pick up. Anyway, I can't imagine what would cause a sudden shift like that short of a loose connection internally. Even if the hub voltage were unstable, the pedals should recover to a value closer than the 25% or so that you mention. I'd give CH a call and talk to Michael. If it's something you can fix, he'll know. If not, he can set you up to get them checked out and repaired.
- Bob
The StickWorks
runtime error 380 invalid property value.
in FSUIPC Support Pete Dowson Modules
Posted
Hi Ron,
Just a thought...could Windows Update have slipped a new system DLL in on you? If it's XP and you've got a restore point, you might try backing up and see if things improve. Windows update has caused grief before and if you're online and it's enabled, they can slip things in on you. I've seen it install DRM software, what appear to be programs to check that your Windows install is legal, etc. You might have a look at the SetupAPI log, too. It may or may not show something happening, it does normally seem to show Windows update activities, though.
- Bob
The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com