issue with using FSUIPC key programing for tuning com radio

[MichaelDay]

Hello Peter

I'm trying to use FSUIPC key programing to get keyboard control for tuning the com radio. I've run into some trouble with setting up the controls for the com standby frequencies. For instance, when I use FSUIPC to assign a key to COM_STBY_RADIO_WHOLE_INCREASE, and then imediately after use FSUIPC to review this setting, FSUIPC will show the key is assigned to COM2_RADIO_WHOLE_INC. I've checked your FS2004controls file, and these 2 controls (COM_STBY_RADIO_WHOLE_INCREASE and COM2_RADIO_WHOLE_INC) are asigned the exact same FS control number (66437)! Hmmmmm?

Whats the trick for me to make FSUIPC do the key program setting that correctly destinguishes the control of the com radio standy frequency? Is there a parameter I should include in this keyboard programming?, or do I need to somehow trigger the COM_STBY_RADIO_SET control?

Help!!

Cheers!!

Mike Day

[Pete Dowson]

I've run into some trouble with setting up the controls for the com standby frequencies. For instance, when I use FSUIPC to assign a key to COM_STBY_RADIO_WHOLE_INCREASE, and then imediately after use FSUIPC to review this setting, FSUIPC will show the key is assigned to COM2_RADIO_WHOLE_INC. I've checked your FS2004controls file, and these 2 controls (COM_STBY_RADIO_WHOLE_INCREASE and COM2_RADIO_WHOLE_INC) are asigned the exact same FS control number (66437)! Hmmmmm?

So they are! Hmmm. I never noticed that before. Thanks.

However, there's not a lot I can do about it. It arises because the assignments were derived directly from the CONTROLS.DLL file in FS itself. Unfortunately, presumably due to an oversight by MS, the actual usage and names of some of the controls has been changed, but CONTROLS.DLL still contains the old names not the new.

The CONTROLS.DLL actually dictates what the names are to be when assigned in FS, i.e. in FS9.CFG and FS's other joystick configuration files. It is CONTROLS.DLL which parses those and decodes them -- FSUIPC accesses exactly the same tables, so that it automatically gets the controls specific to each version of FS.

However, there are a number of new controls which never made it into CONTROLS.DLL, so unless I did something special about those they'd never be listed (in my Controls List, or FSUIPC's drop-downs).

So, in order to provide access to these newer ones, which aren't actually available (at least under those names) in FS Controls, I added a heap of them artificially, both in FSUIPC's drop down and to the Controls list.

Of course, in doing this, I never noticed that some of the new ones actually replaced some of those already listed in CONTROLS.DLL with different names, even different functions! Apart from noting the fact some place there's not a lot I can do about it really -- as I say, the CONTROLS.DLL list is obtained at run time, automatically, even if it is wrong.

It isn't as bad as it sounds. There are actually no controls for changing the "in use" frequencies, you have to change the standby frequencies then tell FS to swap them over. So the term "Standby" in all the frequency inc, dec and set controls is misleading and not needed.

Just use the plain controls for changing the frequencies and you'll be okay.

BTW, by way of clarification, I have not tried all the controls to see if they work or what they do, so I cannot guarantee any of them. In particular, where a control has two names which apparently mean different things, I really wouldn't necessarily know which was correct -- I'd have to try them and see. I'm afraid this is the way with all of the FS controls. All I offer is the ability to program keys and buttons to send them to FS. What happens then is another matter. Of course I always hope they work and do something related to their name, but I do think several of them are not even connected inside FS and are just leftovers from a bygone age, or hopeful entries which never made it to the released version of FS.

Regards,

Pete

[MichaelDay]

Thanks Peter

I guess I'll need to experiment some more to try to see if I can figure a work-around to this, and determine what radio controls I can get working with the keyboard and what I can't. Wish me luck!

Thanks again

Mike Day

[Pete Dowson]

I guess I'll need to experiment some more to try to see if I can figure a work-around to this, and determine what radio controls I can get working with the keyboard and what I can't. Wish me luck!

You shouldn't need any experiments or luck. I think the main controls work just fine:

Com Radio Whole Dec

Com Radio Whole Inc

Com Radio Fract Dec

Com Radio Fract Inc

for COM1, and

Com2 Radio Whole Dec

Com2 Radio Whole Inc

Com2 Radio Fract Dec

Com2 Radio Fract Inc

for COM2. As I said, these actually change the standby radio -- there are no controls supplied for the "Use" frequency. You always set the standby then Swap them over (there is a Swap control which works).

Regards,

Pete

[MichaelDay]

Hi Peter

Yes, what you described works good for the radios that are in planes like the standard MS 737-400 etc. But I really enjoy flying the PMDG 737-NG payware planes, and unfortunately the radio control you described doesn't quite work that way for its radios.

The radio panel in the PMDG 737s are a little fancier. The PMDG COM radios have working tuning knobs on both the active and stby sides for each of the COM1 and COM2 radios. The swap button in these PMDG radion behaves differently to how it works in the standard MS 737-4 radios, and will swap between the radio's use of the active and stby sides as indicated by little diod light going on either above the active or stby frequencies.

The Com Radio (Whole Dec + Inc ~ Fract Dec + Inc) controls allows you to make keyboard changes to the standby frequency side of the PMDG COM1 radio. The Com2 Radio (Whole Dec + Inc ~ Fract Dec + Inc) controls allows you to make kayboard changes the standby frequency of the PMDG COM2 radio. But there doesn't seem to be any keyboard programming controls available in FSUIPC that can be used to change these active frequency sides of these COM1 and COM2 radios in the PMDG 737 radio panel.

So without having these controls available for the PMDG radio active frequency knobs, it seems that my one option for FSUIPC keyboard control of the PMDG com radios is to ALWAYS the radio's standby frequency side for communication with controllers, and use the swap button control to toggle the radio temporarily to the active frequency side, while I make my next controller com frequency change on to the standby frequency, and then use the swap button control to make the radio go back to using standby frequency side for communication. This is a little frustrating.

I'll now ask PMDG if they have, or know of, any alternative way of getting some keybord control of these COM radio active frequency knobs, so I can work these radios properly without using a mouse. Wish me luck!

Regards,

Mike Day

[Pete Dowson]

REVISED AFTER READING MORE CAREFULLY! :wink:

The Com Radio (Whole Dec + Inc ~ Fract Dec + Inc) controls allows you to make keyboard changes to the standby frequency side of the PMDG COM1 radio. The Com2 Radio (Whole Dec + Inc ~ Fract Dec + Inc) controls allows you to make kayboard changes the standby frequency of the PMDG COM2 radio.

Then it is acting the same as the normal FS radio stack, and the same as a standard Bendix-King type radio in real life. The extra controls to alter the in-use frequencies in the PMDG are not supported by FS so there aren't any controls supplied by FS for those -- there will only be whatever PMDG supplies in the way of key assignments.

But there doesn't seem to be any keyboard programming controls available in FSUIPC that can be used to change these active frequency sides of these COM1 and COM2 radios in the PMDG 737 radio panel.

There aren't any facilities to do that in FS for any aircraft which has standby frequencies -- you always enter the next frequency in the standby, THEN use the Swap button or control. The only times that in-use frequencies are directly changeable in the type of radio supported are in the NAV radios (not COM) when the Radial is being displayed in the standby position (but I don't think FS emulates this feature).

So without having these controls available for the PMDG radio active frequency knobs, it seems that my one option for FSUIPC keyboard control of the PMDG com radios is to ALWAYS the radio's standby frequency side for communication with controllers, and use the swap button control to toggle the radio temporarily to the active frequency side

Why "temporarily"? That is really the normal correct way to use the simulated type of radio. It is the way they are designed to be used.

while I make my next controller com frequency change on to the standby frequency, and then use the swap button control to make the radio go back to using standby frequency side for communication. This is a little frustrating.

Sorry, you've lost me. You always have up to 4 different frequencies for COM to choose from -- two on COM1 and two on COM2. There can only ever be two actual "in use" frequencies as there are only two actual COM radios. You simply enter new frequencies in the standby side. This is the way Bendix-King style radios work. I am not understanding why you think this is "frustrating" -- is it simply just the unreachable extra knobs added by PMDG which are annoying?

Regards,

Pete

[Erups]

No they didn't reinvent the wheel:

the radio facility is just the fs standard, but they sort of remade the graphics ;)

Surely this looks more real, with the changeing led, but the "behind" is the standard fs nav/com facility.

Pete is there a way for fsuipc to assign offsets to keys?

I do not know, since i use fsbus, but if so, Mike could solve his problem.

BR

Claudio

[Pete Dowson]

No they didn't reinvent the wheel:

the radio facility is just the fs standard, but they sort of remade the graphics ;)

In that case there is surely no problem at all -- the standard FSUIPC controls will do the trick.

If this isn't the case then I am surely not understanding something.

Pete is there a way for fsuipc to assign offsets to keys?

If you mean program a key or button to write specific vlaues to specific FSUIPC offsets, then yes, of course. The main such facilities were added in version 3.14, back in January, as documented. With those you can write 8, 16 and 32 bit values, or simply clear bits, set bits, or toggle bits. The facility has been augmented to do increments and decrements too, but this part isn't yet released -- it will be in the next version.

But I don't really see how this is relevant to the thread. Care to explain?

Regards,

Pete

[Erups]

If you mean program a key or button to write specific vlaues to specific FSUIPC offsets, then yes, of course. The main such facilities were added in version 3.14, back in January, as documented. With those you can write 8, 16 and 32 bit values, or simply clear bits, set bits, or toggle bits.

Ok, thanks.

Didn't know that.

The facility has been augmented to do increments and decrements too, but this part isn't yet released -- it will be in the next version.

Here it is what Mike needs.

But I don't really see how this is relevant to the thread. Care to explain?

The controls are messed up, but the offsets are not (i've tested it with fsinterrogate, and both comm work.).

So by assigning "increase/decreas offset" function to keys, Mike can overcome the problem depicted in the posts above.

That's my idea.

[Pete Dowson]

Ok, thanks.

Didn't know that.

Just scan the release notes at the top of this forum when a new version is announced, or check the History document in the Zip when you update each time. It will keep you abreast of things. :wink:

The controls are messed up, but the offsets are not (i've tested it with fsinterrogate, and both comm work.).

Which controls are messed up? The ones I listed above certainly work with all the aircraft I've tried. And by writing to the standby offsets in FSInterrogate, effectively you are mostly getting FSUIPC to use those same controls internally. As far as I remember without looking at the code the only ones which write direct are the "in use" offsets, for which there are no controls.

So by assigning "increase/decreas offset" function to keys, Mike can overcome the problem depicted in the posts above.

Unfortunately the amount to increase or decrease will be difficult to arrange -- the inc/dec facilities for offsets which will be offered in the next release allow any increment/decrement, but not one in BCD and varying according to the current value. Remember that the frequencies are not in normal numerical format, so many values are invalid, and even then the fractional values change by 2 or 3 alternately, thus: .00, .02, .05, .07, .10This is because the 1/1000th's digit, a 0 or 5, is omitted. (Here the .10 value is actually represented by decimal 16 of course, being BCD.

Regards

Pete

[Erups]

Just scan the release notes at the top of this forum when a new version is announced, or check the History document in the Zip when you update each time. It will keep you abreast of things. :wink:

It's just that i do not need that specific feature :)

Which controls are messed up?

The ones haveing the same name of the others, so they do not work.

Unfortunately the amount to increase or decrease will be difficult to arrange -- the inc/dec facilities for offsets which will be offered in the next release allow any increment/decrement, but not one in BCD and varying according to the current value. Remember that the frequencies are not in normal numerical format, so many values are invalid, and even then the fractional values change by 2 or 3 alternately, thus: .00, .02, .05, .07, .10This is because the 1/1000th's digit, a 0 or 5, is omitted. (Here the .10 value is actually represented by decimal 16 of course, being BCD.

The amount can be just 1 or 5 as FSUIPC already does (nav 50khz increments facility).

The fact that it can or not write in hex is up to you :)

BR

Claudio

[Pete Dowson]

Which controls are messed up?

The ones haveing the same name of the others, so they do not work.

But Mike does not need any of those -- as I keep saying, he does not need any controls which say "standby" to operate the standby frequencies, because the regular ones (those that used to operate the "in-use" frequencies back in old versions of FS) now act upon the standby frequencies, not the in-use ones. The set of controls I listed earlier do work fine.

There are no FS controls to control the in-use frequency directly. The radios emulated don't have such a facility.

The amount can be just 1 or 5 as FSUIPC already does (nav 50khz increments facility).

The NAV facility for increment selection is not related to the COM radios, which was the subject of the enquiry. The COM radios go in increments of 25khz, which is an additive of 2 and 3 alternately.

The fact that it can or not write in hex is up to you :)

It is not hex, but BCD. FSUIPC allows hex or decimal, but the only application of BCD would be for the radios, and there is really no need for that because the FS controls do actually work fine.

If it is important to control the in-use frequencies directly then it would be better (and in fact easier!) to support these by adding new FSUIPC controls specifically for this. But I am currently still confused about the need. Surely standard practice is to set new frequencies in the standby side and then swap when needed? There must be many thousands of aircraft fitted with radios which only work this way, and it would become second natrure to do it. Why is a direct in-use change needed?

Regards,

Pete

[Erups]

Since the "normal" controls act upon the standby frequencies, now he is in need of the active frequency controls.

About the hex vs bcd:

as far as i know, writing in any offset any number in hex (like 2450) tunes the same frequency (so it would be 124.50).

I don't bother how it is called, just that it works :D

About the why is it needed: that plane is made this way, and he wants to reproduce it.

That's just it i think.

BR

Claudio

[Pete Dowson]

as far as i know, writing in any offset any number in hex (like 2450) tunes the same frequency (so it would be 124.50).

I don't bother how it is called, just that it works :D

There is a big difference between hex and BCD. If you have a hex number like 2457 (for 124.57) and you add 3 to it, you do NOT get 2460 (for 124.60) but the hex number 245A, which is not a legal frequency in BCD. To get 2460 you'd need to add 9.

It gets worse if there's a need to carry further. 2997 (for 129.97) would become 299A with 3 added or 29A0 with 9 added. To get the 3000 you want (for 130.00) you'd have to add hex 669 (decimal 1641).

You see that there is no way to assign simple inc/dec controls for hex to any BCD numbers. It is not a matter of "how it is called" but how arithmetic works with it.

In short, there is no way the offset increment/decrement facility I am offering in the next version of FSUIPC would work correctly with BCD, though it will in decimal and hexadecimal. Please believe this.

About the why is it needed: that plane is made this way, and he wants to reproduce it. That's just it i think.

Well, I expect the PMDG SDK will allow programs to be written for this -- PMDG have provided nothing but keystrokes for operation of all the important stuff like the MCP and this is much more frustrating I think for cockpit builders.

I don't at present see a great need for new FSUIPC controls for changing in-use radio frequencies, but I will consider it if there is really a demand and I have some spare time. I'll put it on the list and see.

Regards,

Pete

[Erups]

Pete, i think you haven't tested the radio facilities in FS.

Whatever you write to them, they keep the BCD.

Even if you use letters.

So if you can do a "add/substract 1" i'm sure it will work.

It is sufficient that the facility does the following:

obtain actual value from fs

add/substract

pass new value to fs.

It will work, i used fsinterrogate and it works.

About the PMDG sdk thing:

i only offered my advice because the original poster also posted on the avsim PMDG support forum.

I read his post, and this which was linked, and i offered my advice.

I'm sorry the discussion has shifted to a docile argumentation between you and me, my intent was only to help mike in obtaining his control.

Best regards

Claudio

[Pete Dowson]

Pete, i think you haven't tested the radio facilities in FS.

Whatever you write to them, they keep the BCD.

Even if you use letters.

In my experiments FS2004 discards the bad values, so the current one gets left unchanged. Therefore you can't increment passed the bad one. I certainly don't think it will get you to 3000 from 2997!

I'm not sure about FS2002, but certainly FS2000 and earlier would display rubbish if you sent it bad frequencies.

Either way it isn't any good for a simple inc/dec control set.

I'm sorry the discussion has shifted to a docile argumentation between you and me

Do you think we are arguing? :? I thought it was a discussion about a misunderstanding. :wink:

Regards,

Pete

[MichaelDay]

Peter and Claudio

I really appreciate both of your time and reasearch into this subject. I'm having trouble following all that you've both said above, and will need to do some extra reading to understand this stuff!! From this, I'm still unclear if there's any potential way to get FSUIPC key programming to help make a keyboard method of tunning the PMDG Com radio active frequency knobs. Is there?

Mooooocho Thanks! and Cheers!!

Mike Day

[Pete Dowson]

From this, I'm still unclear if there's any potential way to get FSUIPC key programming to help make a keyboard method of tunning the PMDG Com radio active frequency knobs. Is there?

No, sorry. All the FS facilities follow standard Bendix-King radio design and only allow changes to the standby unless the standby display is in use for other things (like radials on the NAV). They normally only have the one dual concentric rotary for adjusting the values, not two.

I don't know the PMDG panel, but if they have added the facility to adjust either separately, with separate rotary control, then surely they've also provided some way of controlling this apart from the mouse? Did you check the key assignments they provide?

Quite honestly I don't know why you find it "frustrating" to be forced to use the radios in the way than most folks have to both in the sim and in real life. Maybe it is because I don't know the panel, but I don't really understand the need to change the in-use frequency directly. I've been using 'real' (hardware) radio stacks with FS for many years (right back to FS5) and have never found it a problem to dial in the next frequency on the standby whilst still talking to the current controller on the "in use" frequency. It seems quite natural.

I am quite prepared to add to my long list of FSUIPC requests additional commands to allow in-use frequencies to be incremented, decremented and set, but I really would first of all like to understand the need, please?

Regards,

Pete

[MichaelDay]

Did you check the key assignments they provide?

Yes I did, but unfortunately the Com radio frequency control knobs are not included in PMDG's keyboard assignments

Quite honestly I don't know why you find it "frustrating" to be forced to use the radios in the way than most folks have to both in the sim and in real life. Maybe it is because I don't know the panel, but I don't really understand the need to change the in-use frequency directly. I've been using 'real' (hardware) radio stacks with FS for many years (right back to FS5) and have never found it a problem to dial in the next frequency on the standby whilst still talking to the current controller on the "in use" frequency. It seems quite natural.

It's a little frustrating because the PMDG radio stacks don't behave like you describe above - where you can dial the next frequency on standby whilst still talking to the current controller. Without seeing the PMDG radios, it might be a little hard to understand. There are tuning knobs on BOTH the left and right sides of the PMDG Com radios, and the swap button simply assigns the radio to use the OTHER side as the active frequency. The radios you describe above only have the frequency tuning knob on the stby (right) side, and the swap button will move this tuned frequency over to the active (left) side, by flip-flopping the stby and active frequencies.

SoooI'm looking for a keyboard method to tune the active frequency knob of the PMDG radio so that I could do the tuning of the next frequency while still talking to the current controller. That is, the ability to dial in the next frequency on the COM left side, whilst still talking to the current controller on the right side frequency.

I can obviously use the mouse to tune the right side frequency knobs, but that detracts from the realism. I'd like to be able to manually tune the frequency of the PMDG Com radios without using the mouse, to try to make things a little more realistic in all the frequency switching between different controllers in VATSIM flights.

Regards,

Mike Day

[Pete Dowson]

There are tuning knobs on BOTH the left and right sides of the PMDG Com radios, and the swap button simply assigns the radio to use the OTHER side as the active frequency.

Oh, I see. But doesn't that amount to the same thing? Simply swapping over which side is "standby" and which is "in use" instead of swapping the frequencies themselves? Don't the FS Controls I listed operate on whichever is the "standby" frequency whichever side it's displayed on?

SoooI'm looking for a keyboard method to tune the active frequency knob of the PMDG radio so that I could do the tuning of the next frequency while still talking to the current controller. That is, the ability to dial in the next frequency on the COM left side, whilst still talking to the current controller on the right side frequency.

This should be exactly what the controls I listed for you do -- they don't change the "in-use" frequency, only the "standby". You can't be talking to a controller on the standby frequerncy because that isn't in use!

Perhaps I need to re-install the PMDG panel so I can test the controls I mentioned, but it is bit of a palava when I don't need it. Can you re-check please and describe it a little more carefully? Internally they must be changing the frequency not being used. It sounds like all PMDG have done is made the display of the standby left or right according to the swap button.

Can you please just try the commands I mentioned and tell me what happens on screen for each state of in-use/standby, standby-in-use?

Thanks,

Pete

[MichaelDay]

Peter

Thankyou, thankyou, THANKYOU !!!!

I feel like such a fool!

You're right!! again! The Com radio (Whole Dec + Inc ~ Fract Dec + Inc) controls will change the frequency value on PMDG com radio, that is on the opposite side of whatever the current Com "in use" frequency is, as set by the swap button and as indicated by which of the little diod lights is on above each frequency display. < I obivously didn't experiment enough to see the behaviour of the FSUIPC keyboard controls on the PMDG radios, and stupidly thought that these controls would ONLY change the frequency on the right side of the PMDG com radio > Dooh!!!

Thus, FSUIPC gives me full keyboard control over these PMDG Com radios, and make it soooo easy to use!!

Once again, FSUIPC to the rescue!!

Mooooocho Grats Peter!!

Cheers!!

Mike Day

[Pete Dowson]

You're right!! again! The Com radio (Whole Dec + Inc ~ Fract Dec + Inc) controls will change the frequency value on PMDG com radio, that is on the opposite side of whatever the current Com "in use" frequency is, as set by the swap button and as indicated by which of the little diod lights is on above each frequency display.

Great! That's good -- it saves me a lot of work adding new controls which aren't really needed after all! Phew! :D

Good flying!

Regards,

Pete