Feelthere PIC ERJ145 throttle problem

[zfehr]

Hello Pete,

I have enough information now to make a usable contribution to this forum. I have had a registered version of FSUIPC for a long time now and really like the ability to calibrate my joystick for throttle operation and to enable reverse thrust in jets/turboprop aircraft (one of many features that make it a must have program).

I recently purchased the PIC ERJ-145 from Feelthere and found that the way this program is written makes using FSUIPC's throttle calibration and adding reverse thrust unusable. I realize that this is only going to effect registered FSUIPC users that are also using the individual throttle menu within FSUIPC. This the only aircraft I have ever found this problem with.

When FSUIPC's individual throttle calibration is used the throttles will jump all over the place and are impossible to get to hold any setting at any lever position. Turn off this feature within FSUIPC and the throttle works fine. Customer service at Feelthere responded saying that since Microsoft released the SDK explaining throttle operation in Flight Simulator they were able to program the throttles in their ERJ-145 to simulate the FADEC system properly. That in fact they are utilizing all four throttle assignments but getting instructions for lever position through the first two throttle lever inputs. Their stand is that they designed the sim to work with FS2004 and that it is not their responsibility to make it work with any third party products ie FSUIPC.

I don't know if you even have any interest to make modifications to FSUIPC since it works so nicely with everything else out there. I would love to have reverse thrust usable through my levers and don't feel like going through programming a different setup that has to be switched between depending on aircraft flown.

This post is to make you and others reading this post aware of the conflict with the Feelthere PIC ERJ-145 when used with a registered version of FSUIPC and utilizing FSUIPC's individual throttle calibration. The present work-around is to turn off the individual throttle calibration within FSUIPC and just use the Microsoft lever assignments calibrated with Microsoft's (or throttle manufacturer's) software.

Best wishes,

Zane

[Pete Dowson]

I have enough information now to make a usable contribution to this forum. ...

When FSUIPC's individual throttle calibration is used the throttles will jump all over the place and are impossible to get to hold any setting at any lever position. Turn off this feature within FSUIPC and the throttle works fine.

Strange. I wonder why. I've been told this once before, but no one could explain what was going on. I understood it was with the main throttle calibration in FSUIPC, but are you saying it's from the separate individual throttle calibrations? Are you, by any chance, mapping a single throttle to the four separate ones?

That in fact they are utilizing all four throttle assignments but getting instructions for lever position through the first two throttle lever inputs.

Ah, so they are mapping the thottles too? Sounds like two overlaying attempts at mapping values -- leading to disaster, certainly.

I don't know if you even have any interest to make modifications to FSUIPC since it works so nicely with everything else out there. I would love to have reverse thrust usable through my levers and don't feel like going through programming a different setup that has to be switched between depending on aircraft flown.

And what would you propose being the solution? First of all I'd need to understand precisely what the problem was -- i.e. exactly what was happening. Without the aircraft (which I am not willing to purchase as I don't want to fly it) this is difficult. And even if I did, from what you say there doesn't appear to really be an easy solution. Certainly there's no solution to double mapping -- either one or the other needs to map inputs to outputs, not both.

If you expalin how many real axes you are actually using and how you are setting the throttles up in FSUIPC then maybe I could make other suggestions about things you could try.

I find it a little odd, and not a little annoying, that the makers of this aircraft not only say it's nothing to do with them and refuse to help, but no one from whatever group it is responsible for it has ever approached me about it or asked if I might like to resolve it. I'm sure with some detailed information from them, and possible even an aircraft to test with, a solution could have been found.

As it is, with suppliers like that, it does not endear one to working very hard at any sort of solution.

That said, I'll try to help if you have more information, but I really don't know how far I can go. Odd also that this is only the second time it has been mentioned here. The first was two months ago and I got no reply when I asked for more details. It doesn't appear to be a popular need at all.

Regards,

Pete

[zfehr]

Hi Pete,

I am using CH products Throttle Quadrant, USB Yoke and Pedals. I have the Quadrant programmed from left to right: throttle 1, throttle 2, propellor 1, propellor 2, mixture 1, mixture 2.

Your response got me to go back and try a couple of things. First I deleted the throttle assignments and assigned the throttle axis to the single throttle lever on the USB Yoke. This of course worked fine, then I used the FSUIPC calibration on page 1 for this throttle lever, it also worked just fine with or without filtering. I then reset the throttle in FSUIPC and set the throttle on page 1 to map to four throttles... I went to that page and calibrated the throttle with reverse. This also worked! Hmmm :? .

Now that I am at work and thinking more about it (whilst I write this post) I want to attempt to set up throttle 1 to map to 3 and throttle 2 to map to 4 (if that is possible) and see what happens. I haven't messed with that before, that is why I'm not sure of how that works.

I will let you know what I find. I really feel that there was no mal-intent on the part of Feelthere in designing their throttle to work this way, and since there was little response past the initial complaint of the throttle not working with FSUIPC it just wasn't pursued any further.

Regards,

Zane

[Pete Dowson]

throttle 1, throttle 2

Ah, you have two separate throttles. So you aren't mapping from one throttle.

The ERJ-145 has two engines, yet in your earlier post you said "in fact they are utilizing all four throttle assignments but getting instructions for lever position through the first two throttle lever inputs."

Are they actually simulating this aircraft somehow with 4 engines, 2 invisible? Please use FSUIPC's monitor (right-hand side Logging page) and check how many engines it says it has (offset 0AEC, type U16).

Your response got me to go back and try a couple of things. First I deleted the throttle assignments and assigned the throttle axis to the single throttle lever on the USB Yoke. This of course worked fine, then I used the FSUIPC calibration on page 1 for this throttle lever, it also worked just fine with or without filtering. I then reset the throttle in FSUIPC and set the throttle on page 1 to map to four throttles... I went to that page and calibrated the throttle with reverse. This also worked! Hmmm :? .

Hmmm indeed! You have me completely puzzled.

There are two sets of individual throttle controls: AXIs_THROTTLEn_SET and THROTTLEn_SET. The former are the more recent and it is those which FS will be assigning. They have no reverse section -- the values run from -16384 for idle to +16384 for full thrust. This is in common with pretty much all the modern axis controls in FS.

The older ones, THROTTLEn_SET, offer a reverse range -- anything below zero (down to the max reverse thrust which varies, but is typically -4096 -- FSUIPC calibrates to this nominally but varies it in practice according to the aircraft). Idle is 0 and full thrust is +16383.

Using these older values is the only way to get the reverse thrust on an axis input. So when you calibrate on FSUIPC's page which allows reverse, it converts the new controls to the old ones.

Maybe the way the aircraft is using the Throttle 3 and 4 values is assuming the range is one way (-16384 to +16384) when it's actually the other, or vice versa. I really can't imagine what it is doing with the extra throttles, but if it is trying to re-combine disparate values somehow I could imagine it would get in quite a mess.

Really, some information on exactly what they are doing would be extremely useful. At least it might show whether there is an easy solution or not.

Now that I am at work and thinking more about it (whilst I write this post) I want to attempt to set up throttle 1 to map to 3 and throttle 2 to map to 4 (if that is possible) and see what happens.

I'm afraid there's no facility for that. For a 4 engined aircraft, with two throttles you'd want to be able to get differential thrust -- 1 and 2 on 1 and 3 and 4 on 2. There's realy no call for 1+3 and 2+4 (a very weird combination in any case -- outer and inner would be more likely (1->1+4 and 2->2+3), but even then ...

One experiment you could try is temporarily giving up your two prop controls (say) and allocating all 4 throttles.

I'm really not sure where all this is likely to take us. I really think you might be better making some approach to the authors to try to get some information.

What's a FADEC system, by the way?

Regards,

Pete

[zfehr]

Hi Pete,

Just leaving the office now. FADEC stands for full authority digital engine control. On the real aircraft a computer sets thrust settings, the levers communicate with the computer rather than directly with the engines. With this system you can just push the levers full forward on takeoff and the computer handles proper thrust settings taking temperature, humidity and altitude into consideration for optimum settings. There are additionally buttons allowing for setting the system for takeoff thrust, maximum continuous thrust, climb thrust and cruise thrust settings. Further modifications can be made in the FMC to set the cruise for high speed or long range settings. It is a nice simulation of the real aircraft's system. I will let you know what I find following your instructions and see if they want to share any more tidbits about how they are doing it.

Thank you,

Zane

[zfehr]

Hi Pete,

I have made a log of the Feelthere ERJ-145 from a startup on runway, takeoff and climb then throttling back without FSUIPC throttle calibration and a second log where I did calibrate the separate throttles with FSUIPC and started the engines but was unable to takeoff, the throttles went wild. The are in the zipped file attachment. I unfortunately have no idea what these mean but I hope you can make sense of them. In the email I received from Victor Racz of Feelthere he stated that they had to make a virtual 3rd and 4th engine to make this system work right and that he does think it would be good for you both to communicate about this problem, I will encourage him to email you.

Best wishes,

Zane

ERJlogs.zip

[Pete Dowson]

Just leaving the office now. FADEC stands for full authority digital engine control. On the real aircraft a computer sets thrust settings, the levers communicate with the computer rather than directly with the engines. With this system you can just push the levers full forward on takeoff and the computer handles proper thrust settings taking temperature, humidity and altitude into consideration for optimum settings.

Sounds like the Airbus fly-by-wire. FSUIPC made provisions a long time ago to allow all controls, throttles included, to be disconnected yet have the values available to a panel. This facility is used by a number of the more complex add-ons. Evidently the "Feelthere" folks (who I'd never heard of before, BTW) felt they didn't want to have to use FSUIPC. Still it would be nice of them to at least define what they are doing so some sort of compatibility can be achieved.

I suspect that a lot of other throttle control systems, such as those from PFC and Elite, will not work properly with this aircraft either.

I will let you know what I find following your instructions and see if they want to share any more tidbits about how they are doing it.

Okay. I don't need to know any secrets, just how Throttles 3 and 4 come into this. You've already shown that you can use the older Throttle controls with Reverse. So it really sounds as if it's the Throttle 3 and 4 values "interfering" with those on Throttles 1 and 2 when the latter are on a totally different scale (0-16k instead of -16k-+16k).

Regards,

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

I have made a log of the Feelthere ERJ-145 from a startup on runway, takeoff and climb then throttling back without FSUIPC throttle calibration and a second log where I did calibrate the separate throttles with FSUIPC and started the engines but was unable to takeoff, the throttles went wild. The are in the zipped file attachment. I unfortunately have no idea what these mean but I hope you can make sense of them.

Well, it seems their program is using the -16k to +16k scale for forward thrust no matter whether the control is AXIS_THROTTLEn_SET or THROTTLEn_SET. They either didn't realise there was any difference, or, more likely, just assumed no one would ever be using the old FS98 controls these days -- even though they are the only ones providing reverser axes.

The raises the main question. How do THEY provide reverser control for their aircraft? It looks like they really don't allow any axis control of reverse at all. Is that supposed to be all by buttons?

The problems are, I think, going to be insurmountable without help from them, maybe even a modification by them. I'm not sure whether I can "fiddle" things at all. I would certainly need a copy of the aircraft, and I really don't want one.

Oddly, I see absolutely no controls going to FS for Engines 3 and 4 at all, so when you say:

In the email I received from Victor Racz of Feelthere he stated that they had to make a virtual 3rd and 4th engine to make this system work right

I'm a little bemused about where those are. Did you check that FSUIPC offset for me in Monitoring? It would be useful to know how many engines FS thinks this aircraft has.

Regards,

Pete

[zfehr]

Hi Pete,

I directed Victor Racz of Feelthere to read this post. He corrected me that the ERJ only uses two throttle assignments, it was the CRJ that used the four to trick the system. I misunderstood his email but I believe there is a language barrier there that is making for problems when discussing complicated matters. I will PM Victor's email address to you, I think with a software swap so you can both see what each of your programs are doing a solution might be found.

Cheers,

Zane

[Pete Dowson]

I directed Victor Racz of Feelthere to read this post. He corrected me that the ERJ only uses two throttle assignments, it was the CRJ that used the four to trick the system. I misunderstood his email but I believe there is a language barrier there that is making for problems when discussing complicated matters. I will PM Victor's email address to you, I think with a software swap so you can both see what each of your programs are doing a solution might be found.

Well, from your private posts it seems that your FeelThere contact finds me 'rude', not only to him/them, but also to you. Do you feel that way? I've reviewed our chat here and I really don't understand how they get such an impression. Anyway, such an emotive injection into technical exchanges is not terribly conducive to a solution I'm afraid.

From all the evidence so far I really doubt that there is a solution in any case. There's likely no way I can affect the forward throttle range they are using without hacking into their code, and I'm not going to do that. The two different FS controls are, well, different.

But you still haven't answered what seems to be quite an important question: how have they provided the reverser control for their aircraft? Because of the effectively forced use of the newer axis controls, it looks like the implementation doesn't allow any axis control of reverse at all. Is is supposed to be all by buttons/mouse/keyboard? If so, then I think you would need to stick to that, and calibrate your two throttle axes only in FS.

One other thing. If you could give up one of the other axes you could see if the Reverser axis facility (page 7 in the Joysticks part of FSUIPC) will work. Worth a try?

Regards,

Pete

[zfehr]

Hi Pete,

We have had enough discussions that I don't feel that you are rude... you are a very busy person and don't have time to waste and this medium of written word is devoid of facial expression, intonation of voice and therefore can be frequently misunderstood. I've been accused of being rude (and other things) on this electronic media so know it's just gonna happen sometimes.

I am not sure how the reverse thrust is provided. I know that the normal F2 key works. I am going to try programming one of the other joystick levers for reverse and I will let you know if that works.

Fortunately this is only going to affect a very few users. Hopefully in the future there might be a working solution so that both programs co-exist with all functions working.

Best wishes,

Zane

[Pete Dowson]

We have had enough discussions that I don't feel that you are rude... you are a very busy person and don't have time to waste and this medium of written word is devoid of facial expression, intonation of voice and therefore can be frequently misunderstood. I've been accused of being rude (and other things) on this electronic media so know it's just gonna happen sometimes.

Okay. Thank you very much. These things gnaw at me, you know. I enjoy techincal interchanges and get rather confused when emotive words start appearing.

I am not sure how the reverse thrust is provided. I know that the normal F2 key works. I am going to try programming one of the other joystick levers for reverse and I will let you know if that works.

Okay, thanks. That will be interesting.

Regards,

Pete

[zfehr]

Hi Pete,

I am happy to report that victory has been achieved :D . There are actually two workable options to get reverse thrust to work on the Feelthere ERJ-145 using FSUIPC calibration.

First way is to assign just one lever for the throttles and map it to all four with FSUIPC, this allows for using the detent on CH's Quadrant so when you pull back you will get reverse thrust.

Second way is to maintain standard FS assigned individual throttles and using the pathway you programmed into FSUIPC assign a different lever to the mixture axis, this can then be assigned through FSUIPC to the reverse thrust (you will probably have to reverse direction to get it to work correctly). It is important that the individual throttles be calibrated so that they will go to zero thrust when pulled all the way back otherwise the reverse lever will not operate.

This gives two workable options for anyone else that runs into this problem and hopefully puts a stop to any further trouble.

I am tired and want to get back to flying rather than futzing with this stuff. I thank you for your time Peter, you have pointed me in the right direction many times and I am grateful to you.

I wish you well and hope your upcoming vacation is peaceful and relaxing.

Best wishes,

Zane

[Pete Dowson]

I am happy to report that victory has been achieved :D . There are actually two workable options to get reverse thrust to work on the Feelthere ERJ-145 using FSUIPC calibration.

...

Great! Neither the exact solution one might wish for, but at least workable. Thanks!

I wish you well and hope your upcoming vacation is peaceful and relaxing.

Thanks. It will be relaxing by being different -- leaping on and off steam trains in northern India. I shall return quite fit but exhausted (physically though, instead of mentally! :wink: ).

Good flying now! :)

Best regards,

Pete

[_ak]

Few facts about FeelThere ERJ:

1. It uses 2 engines

2. It not makes own throttles mapping

3. It not uses FSUIPC. During development FS9 Panels SDK was out and it allows make own TCAS without FSUIPC. APU that burns fuel and some other stuff I did with direct access to internal FS structures.

4. It uses KEY_THROTTLEx_SET events. 0-16k for forward thrust and negative values for reverse thrust

5. It's detects changes in throttle position (from keyboard, mouse, joystick or any other possible control), calculates from it new throttle position (not FS throttle, but throttle visible to user), then our internal throttle position goes to procedure that calculates new REQUEST N1 and at final stage requested N1, altitude, temperature it calculates position of FS throttle and sets it to that position.

Everething works fine until user not use some specific FSUIPC options. Have no idea where conflict is.

[Pete Dowson]

Everething works fine until user not use some specific FSUIPC options. Have no idea where conflict is.

It will simply be because when the user calibrates his throttle axes in FSUIPC, the latter applies this to the THROTTLEn_SET controls. It is most unlikely that his actual idle detente will correspond to an input of zero, so there's a change going on which is upsetting things.

The axes controls actually processed by FSUIPC, and their ranges, are actually listed quite clearly in the FSUIPC User Guide.

I can make an INI parameter option in FSUIPC for it to ignore inputs from THROTTLEn_SET commands and only process the newer AXIS_THROTTLE controls. In fact had I known what was going on just over a week ago I could have included this in version 3.47.

As it is I am on holiday after this weekend, and will not be able to do anything until April.

Thanks,

Pete

[_ak]

It's up for you, Pete

FeelThere can't force you do something for it of course.

Maybe next time I will implement FADEC by altering engine related tables in FDE on the fly without complex playing with throttle

[Pete Dowson]

It's up for you, Pete

FeelThere can't force you do something for it of course.

I can do it, no problem, but I am simply too busy today and this weekend, and go on holiday in the wee hours Tuesday. I've made a note to do something when I return, first week of April. If you don't hear anything here, remind me then.

Regards,

Pete

[_ak]

Ok, thank you