visibility issue with fsuipc

[Guest Anonymous]

Dear Peter,

I've been using the registered version of fsuipc since it came out and I'm currently using the latest.

I have a problem with visibility:

basically it snaps from bluesky to gray overcast without logical explanation and without any transition.

I've tried with the default real time weather as well as by using fsmetar 1.55.

I'm currently using fsmetar and sometimes during a climb, simply it snaps from blue sky to grey.

I had this problem since I use fs2004 and I believe it has to do with my settings. :cry:

here's my fs9 settings:

weather:

30miles

60miles

100% 3D detailed clouds

display:

rendertotexture=off

5 mips

8 lights

high texture size

now to fsuipc:

default weather

visibility 50, 18, 15, 10

extend random weather ON

graduated visibility off

smooth change (or similar) ON set to 2%

in the technical page sync realtime to fstime ON and smooth baro ON.

said that, could you tell me a trusted fsuipc/fs9 configuration I can use in order to get rid of visibility and weather pops and snaps?

in order to have a fully working smoothed and graduated sky.

I'm up to increase some values and loose some performance if it fixes the issue :wink:

thank you for your support

[Pete Dowson]

I have a problem with visibility:

basically it snaps from bluesky to gray overcast without logical explanation and without any transition.

Grey overcast is surely to do with clouds, not visibility? What do the weather read-outs say in the two cases (in FS Weather dialogues and in WeatherSet2)?

I'm currently using fsmetar and sometimes during a climb, simply it snaps from blue sky to grey.

If it isn't due to clouds it will be because the visibility is set very close to the threshold above which you see blue sky (and stars at night) and below which you see mist (your grey) and no stars at night. In FS2002 and FS2000 I think this used to be around 4 miles, but in FS2004 for some reason they extended it to around 10. Someone did measure it precisely once, but I don't recall what is was. Something like 10.4 sm (1040 FSUIPC units of 100ths of a statute mile). You could check yourself using WeatherSet2.

now to fsuipc:

default weather

visibility 50, 18, 15, 10

extend random weather ON

graduated visibility off

smooth change (or similar) ON set to 2%

in the technical page sync realtime to fstime ON and smooth baro ON.

What's "default weather" in this context?

Visibilty settings of 50, 18, 15 and 10 represent half a mile, 0.18 mile, 0.15 mile and a tenth of a mile, respectively. You should have 5000, 1800, 1500 and 1000 respectively! The units are 1/100ths as clearly stated.

By "extended random weather", I assume you must mean "random extend METAR max"? That's important if you use an external program but it has no effect for FS's own weather. For an external program providing METARs in Europe, the variation it is setting will vary from 6.2 miles upwards, so if the weather program is re-sending the visibibilty changes regularly you may get fluctuations above and below 10 miles, so you could try switching that off.

What "smooth changing" is set to 2%? I don't provide any smoothing adjustments by %. The visibility smoothing is 10%, you can only vary the timing.

Baro smoothing doesn't work in FS2004 with FS's own weather, though it can with a weather program.

Why have graduated visibility off?

could you tell me a trusted fsuipc/fs9 configuration I can use in order to get rid of visibility and weather pops and snaps?

My only recommendations would be as per documentation. All variations are then a matter of taste. You cannot stop FS hiding the blue sky when the visibility drops below its threshold -- if you never want to see a grey sky you'd need to set the minimum to 1100 or so -- it defaults to 0. But that will only apply to externally set weather.

Quite honestly, I've never seen sudden loss of blue sky except when descending into a poorer visibility layer, and that does approximate to what can happen in reality. The main thing which is totally unreal in FS is that the visibility restrictions apply in ALL directions (except, stupidly, down!) -- and the least realistic part is that a 10 mile or less visibilty makes the sky directly above grey too, whereas of course it should graduate from grey to blue (or grey to cloud textures).

I regret the changes in FS visibilty since FS2000, which I think had the best visibility effects. FS2002 was totally naff in that area, but the improvements made in FS2004 are offset by rather insane blunders like this 10 mile (approx) cut off.

Finally, you may find the payware alternatives like Active Sky and FS Meteo are far better. I've used both for years and have never suffered from the sorts of problems you describe.

Regards

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

Grey overcast is surely to do with clouds, not visibility? What do the weather read-outs say in the two cases (in FS Weather dialogues and in WeatherSet2)?

Don't know...

do u mean opening the weather option and going to customize and check the weather readout?

I'll have to come back to it and let you know in the future.

now to fsuipc:

default weather

visibility 50, 18, 15, 10

extend random weather ON

graduated visibility off

smooth change (or similar) ON set to 2%

in the technical page sync realtime to fstime ON and smooth baro ON.

What's "default weather" in this context?

I opened fsuipc up and pressed the button 'normal default'.

I've been doing some mistakes because I'm at work and coudn't remember the correct names, sorry.

my 'apply vis limits' are set to 50miles, 18miles, 15miles, 10 miles respectively.

Could it affect the blue-going to overcast straight away if the settings are too far away between each other?

By "extended random weather", I assume you must mean "random extend METAR max"? That's important if you use an external program but it has no effect for FS's own weather. For an external program providing METARs in Europe, the variation it is setting will vary from 6.2 miles upwards, so if the weather program is re-sending the visibibilty changes regularly you may get fluctuations above and below 10 miles, so you could try switching that off.

yes you assume right :-) Ok i'll try turning that off.

What "smooth changing" is set to 2%? I don't provide any smoothing adjustments by %. The visibility smoothing is 10%, you can only vary the timing.

Baro smoothing doesn't work in FS2004 with FS's own weather, though it can with a weather program.

Why have graduated visibility off?

sorry my mistake again: I meant the 'smooth visibility changes' set to 10% every 2 secs as you correctly stated.

I have graduated vis off becauseehm... not sure why :roll:

Quite honestly, I've never seen sudden loss of blue sky except when descending into a poorer visibility layer, and that does approximate to what can happen in reality. The main thing which is totally unreal in FS is that the visibility restrictions apply in ALL directions (except, stupidly, down!) -- and the least realistic part is that a 10 mile or less visibilty makes the sky directly above grey too, whereas of course it should graduate from grey to blue (or grey to cloud textures).

I think my issue has to do with the 10 mile visibility. It must be it.

It looks like I fly from a higher-vis meteo to something slightly below the 10miles threshold (in fact I can see some clouds approaching underneath me, and then *snap* all grey.

Shouldn't fsuipc be smoothing the transition somehow? (just a guess)

I wrote you this message because I tried several combinations of fsuipc settings values and fs9 weather settings.

I first thought it was caused by a limited 30miles weather and 60miles visibility under fs9. Then I thought the issue could be caused by fsuipc not smoothing the weather correctly. Then I thought It could be due to the visibility limits in fsuipc that jumps from 50 miles (clear sky) down to 18miles (cloudy) (another wild guess).

In the end I preferred writing you a message :)

So, in order to avoid brutal jumps in the weather, would it be good to:

keep fs9's weather settings to

30miles,

60miles,

3d 100% (can I reduce it and still obtain a proper behaviour?)

detailed clouds

have fsuips set to 'normal default',

plus all visibility pages' options on?

I would like to switch to activesky, but I'm holding until version 5 comes out :)

really looking forward to this release :-)

I like the clouds and sky colours fs2004 delivers, but as you said there are some big problems with it. Fs2002 was much worse I hated the weather :-) I tried xplane too and I much liked xplane 's weather: you could really 'feel' an overcast layer above or below the AC.

Ideally I would like MS to create a more powerfull and flawless physic engine (weather, dynamics, etc.) before going to develop fancy graphics.

Also one thing I hate of FS2004 is the flight dinamic being affected so much by the joystick sensibility:

try using different joysticks with the same aircraft. It would react in a completely different way :-)

Also at full realism the ac is too sensible and even multiengine big aircrafts tend to roll on one side during takeoffs with no wind :twisted:

At the moment I tend to reduce some of the realism options in order to have a smoother and less sensible rides.

I flew a couple or aircrafts in real life and despite being small in turbolent air I never had to trim more than twice in a short flight. In flight simulator I have to trim every 40 secods........ :roll: :-)

anyway I'm going back to work now :D

Best Regards

[Pete Dowson]

Could it affect the blue-going to overcast straight away if the settings are too far away between each other?

No. If it's the grey sky versus blue sky business I explained, then it could only happen on a change of visibility around the FS threshold, 10. something miles, I think.

Shouldn't fsuipc be smoothing the transition somehow? (just a guess)

It cannot smooth the graphics representation. FS is presenting a blue sky when the visibility is, say, 10.40000 miles (or close), and a grey sky when the visibility is 10.39999 miles (for example). No matter what smoothing occurs, if the value crosses the threshold FS changes graphics. It's completely insane, I agree, just like the 4 mile threshold in FS2000 and FS2002 was insane -- but 4 miles is, in my opinion, less insane than 10 miles!

So, in order to avoid brutal jumps in the weather, would it be good to:

keep fs9's weather settings to

30miles,

60miles,

3d 100% (can I reduce it and still obtain a proper behaviour?)

detailed clouds

have fsuips set to 'normal default',

plus all visibility pages' options on?

I don't think much will make any difference, except possibly disabling the Extend METAR max option and/or using a good weather program.

I would like to switch to activesky, but I'm holding until version 5 comes out :)

really looking forward to this release :-)

Same here. :wink:

Also one thing I hate of FS2004 is the flight dinamic being affected so much by the joystick sensibility:

try using different joysticks with the same aircraft. It would react in a completely different way :-)

Sounds like a combination of joystick calibration differences and the silly dynamic time-related reaction FS started by default in FS2000. You need to add "stick_sensitivity_mode=0" to the CONTROLS section of your FS9.CFG file. That makes the response linear as it was in the good old days of FS98. :)

Also at full realism the ac is too sensible and even multiengine big aircrafts tend to roll on one side during takeoffs with no wind :twisted:

At the moment I tend to reduce some of the realism options in order to have a smoother and less sensible rides.

Well, some of the "realism" options are known to be somewhat overdone, but it also does depend a lot on the modelling. You may like X-Plane, but that's even more sensitive to the modelling and you need to get things right. In FS I would advise you to first put all the realism sliders about centre, or not much higher, then try a variety of third party add-on aircraft. Some are excellent, some are awful.

I flew a couple or aircrafts in real life and despite being small in turbolent air I never had to trim more than twice in a short flight.

You should always trim out any pressure, once in stable flight, whether climb, cruise or descent. Real aircraft vary a lot too. The Cessna 150A I trained in was very twitchy in comparison to the Piper Cherokee 180, for instance.

I had to give up real flying because of my eyes (retinitis pigmentosa, causing deteriorating peripheral vision to the point of extreme tunnel vision, as I have now).

Regards

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm sorry to hear of your eyes.

I don't think much will make any difference, except possibly disabling the Extend METAR max option and/or using a good weather program.

I'm still confused about the extend metar max option.

Is it better to turn it off when using fs9's real weather and fsmetar?

or perhaps it should be makingany difference.

Also does it have anything to do with the modified weather.dll going around on avsim (I think) some time back?

However now that I turned many vis options on and extend metar off, I haven't got a sudden change using fsmetar yet :o

Sounds like a combination of joystick calibration differences and the silly dynamic time-related reaction FS started by default in FS2000. You need to add "stick_sensitivity_mode=0" to the CONTROLS section of your FS9.CFG file. That makes the response linear as it was in the good old days of FS98. :)

thank you x the tip! I'm using and finding it much better now. The only think is that I wish I could add some deadzone at center (for centered axis such as elevators and aileron). However it's much better now :-)

thank you for your support and for keeping fsuipc the wonderful module it is.

[Pete Dowson]

I'm still confused about the extend metar max option.

Is it better to turn it off when using fs9's real weather and fsmetar?

or perhaps it should be makingany difference.

It cannot make any difference for FS9's weather. I really don't know why you are seeing sudden visibility changes there.

With FSMetar it reall depends what it is setting. If is doesn't determine its own variations in visibility when faces with a "9999" or "10SM" visibility report in a METAR (both of which merely indicate "above ...", with 9999= metres, or about 6.2SM, and 10SM obviously 10SM), then what might be happening is that, each time it sends new weather with "9999" or "10SM", FSUIPC is operating its "extend METAR max" option and generating a new visibility value greater than the 9999 or 10SM.

In the case of 10SM, the likelihood of alternate random values being above and below the FS threshold of 10.4 (or whatever) is very small. However, when in Europe with 6.2 SM as the "max" there is obviously more scope for it to drop below FS's threshold.

Maybe I should change the option so that it always treats both 10SM and 9999 as "greater than 10.4" in future, on FS2004 at least. If it is this option which is causing the problem then that would fix it.

But try it. Turn it off and see if you still get the problem with FSMetar. If, as you say, you get it with FS's own weather, then it does seem unlikely that the option has anything to do with it.

Also does it have anything to do with the modified weather.dll going around on avsim (I think) some time back?

I don't know about that. Any details?

The only think is that I wish I could add some deadzone at center (for centered axis such as elevators and aileron).

You can do that easily in FSUIPC's joysticks section. Check the step-by-step instructions in the User Guide. You can also select a response curve which gives you more control near the centre (i.e. less sensitivity) whilst increasing sensitivity towards the extremes so you can still reach full deflection.

Regards

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

But try it. Turn it off and see if you still get the problem with FSMetar. If, as you say, you get it with FS's own weather, then it does seem unlikely that the option has anything to do with it.

I can't confirm that I ever had it with FS's own weather, however I'm sure of having had it on a saved flight (which had a fsmetar's weather saved).

And I'm definitely sure I had the problem with fsmetar.

I'll check with that option off. I still find it difficult to understand:

does it mean it could be both fsuipc and fsmetar dealing with the same issue resulting in weird behaviours (such as sky to grey snaps and viceversa)?

Also does it have anything to do with the modified weather.dll going around on avsim (I think) some time back?

I don't know about that. Any details?

It has gone around for a few weeks on a yahoo mailing list called Aerosarda.

I've sent a message there asking for details where they got it from, but so far nobody knows. It could end up being all fake and not worth it, Peter, however I'm attaching the dll directly so you can have a look by yourself. The description says

"dll corretta per il meteo in europa" that in english means:

"fixed dll for a correct weather in europe".

Could you keep me informed if you have further details about it?

thanks a lot

Best

Regards

Weather.zip

[Pete Dowson]

I still find it difficult to understand:

does it mean it could be both fsuipc and fsmetar dealing with the same issue resulting in weird behaviours (such as sky to grey snaps and viceversa)?

No. Just that is FSmetar is frequently setting the visibility to 6.2SM (9999 metres), and FSUIPC is randomly extending that each time, then sometimes it will be set less than FS's threshold of 10.4 or whatever and sometimes more. Please review the detailed explanations I've already given. I really don't think I can explain it any clearer. Sorry.

I've sent a message there asking for details where they got it from, but so far nobody knows. It could end up being all fake and not worth it, Peter, however I'm attaching the dll directly so you can have a look by yourself. The description says

"dll corretta per il meteo in europa" that in english means:

"fixed dll for a correct weather in europe".

Could you keep me informed if you have further details about it?

Hmmm. Not sure what I should be looking for. Is that the weather DLL you are using? Is it for FS9.0 or FS9.1?

Try restoring the original.

Regards,

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

No. Just that is FSmetar is frequently setting the visibility to 6.2SM (9999 metres), and FSUIPC is randomly extending that each time, then sometimes it will be set less than FS's threshold of 10.4 or whatever and sometimes more. Please review the detailed explanations I've already given. I really don't think I can explain it any clearer. Sorry.

I had a look again in the fsuipc docs, and read the topic from start.

Now It is much clearer, thank you.

Just a curiosity though:

the threshold makes the sky snap from blue to grey and viceversa every time with travel from/to a 10sm visibility zone.

Does it mean the *snap* issue I'm having is a pretty common one isn't it?

Then I suppose payware weather progs such as activesky and fsmeteo must have workarounds for it :-)

Maybe I should change the option so that it always treats both 10SM and 9999 as "greater than 10.4" in future, on FS2004 at least. If it is this option which is causing the problem then that would fix it.

if you think it helps, yes, I would love to have it working in the next fsuipc. :D

Perhaps in the form of an additional checkbox:

so users can stick to the normal or the new 'treat both 10sm and 9999 as greater than 10.4'

Hmmm. Not sure what I should be looking for. Is that the weather DLL you are using? Is it for FS9.0 or FS9.1?

Try restoring the original.

It's based on fs9.1 's weather.dll and no, I'm not using it.

I got hold of it and made me really curious....

however I preferred sticking with the original. However I thought it might interest you :wink:

thank you for your support

[Pete Dowson]

the threshold makes the sky snap from blue to grey and viceversa every time with travel from/to a 10sm visibility zone.

Does it mean the *snap* issue I'm having is a pretty common one isn't it?

No, I've never noticed it at all using FSMeteo or ActiveSky. I assume they set their own visibility values. Also, none of this explains why you also see it with FS's own weather downloads, as FSUIPC cannot and does not then operate that feature.

Perhaps in the form of an additional checkbox:

so users can stick to the normal or the new 'treat both 10sm and 9999 as greater than 10.4'

Maybe, but there are rather too many as it is. Personally Ii don't see a problem in assuming more than 10.4 miles for 9999 metres. I doubt that anyone will notice -- and you wouldn't really expect to see grey murk when the visibility is quoted as 9999 (or even "at least 6.2 miles", which is what it means), would you?

Regards,

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

Maybe, but there are rather too many as it is. Personally Ii don't see a problem in assuming more than 10.4 miles for 9999 metres. I doubt that anyone will notice -- and you wouldn't really expect to see grey murk when the visibility is quoted as 9999 (or even "at least 6.2 miles", which is what it means), would you?

No, I wouldn't :-) You're right :wink:

Are you going to amend it in the next version of fsuipc?

looking forward to try it out :-)

Best regards and have a good weekend

p.s.

I'm surprised at the speed of your replies, it almost looks like we're on the same timezone. I'm in the UK. Where are u from?

Regards

Luca

[Pete Dowson]

Are you going to amend it in the next version of fsuipc?

looking forward to try it out :-)

Yes, it is easy enough. I'm looking to release 3.48 early next week. But I'm not sure you will actually get better results because I thought you still saw this phenomenon using FS's own weather downloads too? FSUIPC doesn't change those with this option. Maybe you just had bad luck with FS/Jeppesen weather? If so you may see things better with FSMetar.

I'm surprised at the speed of your replies, it almost looks like we're on the same timezone. I'm in the UK. Where are u from?

As it says on the left somewhere, I'm near Stoke-on-Trent, also UK. In fact I'm about 15nm almost due south of EGCC.

Regards,

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes, it is easy enough. I'm looking to release 3.48 early next week. But I'm not sure you will actually get better results because I thought you still saw this phenomenon using FS's own weather downloads too? FSUIPC doesn't change those with this option. Maybe you just had bad luck with FS/Jeppesen weather? If so you may see things better with FSMetar.

To be honest I can't confirm that I had the issue with fs's own weather.

It could've been something to do with the weather's server... not sure.

Anyway I'm really looking forward to the new release then :D

As it says on the left somewhere, I'm near Stoke-on-Trent, also UK. In fact I'm about 15nm almost due south of EGCC.

I'm living in Bristol; lived in London and Birmingham before. However I'm from Italy (Viareggio,5-10 miles northwest of Pisa LIRP).

Regards

[Pete Dowson]

I'm living in Bristol; lived in London and Birmingham before. However I'm from Italy (Viareggio,5-10 miles northwest of Pisa LIRP).

I guessed your name was Italian :wink: . My wife comes from Bristol -- I went to University there. Nice city. I am from London (well, close) originally. Actually Eastcote, Middlesex.

Regards,

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm living in Bristol; lived in London and Birmingham before. However I'm from Italy (Viareggio,5-10 miles northwest of Pisa LIRP).

I guessed your name was Italian :wink: . My wife comes from Bristol -- I went to University there. Nice city. I am from London (well, close) originally. Actually Eastcote, Middlesex.

Regards,

Pete

Hi,

I tested fs2004, fsmetar and the new 3.48 with and without 'random extend metar'.

I've also run weatherset2 to check what the vis layer was set to.

Well I took off from RivoltoAB (italy) and it was overcast (VIS LAYER UP TO 5000 IS 7 MILES). I climbed over 5000 it (VIS LAYER NOW REPORTS 20 miles), roughly 3 seconds later the sky snapped from grey to blue. The problem is that as soon as I start seing the blue sky, I can also see the crisp and clean terrain below and no sign of overcast. It's like a clear day below.

Of course as soon as I descend below it snaps again from blue to grey and the vis layer switched back to 7 miles.

Is it caused by a bad representation of the weather, caused by fsmetar?

or my settings? or custom textures (perhaps the overcast textures non showing)

or is the normal way fs2004 does indeed behave?

thank you again and have a nice bank holiday

Luca

[Pete Dowson]

I tested fs2004, fsmetar and the new 3.48 with and without 'random extend metar'.

I've also run weatherset2 to check what the vis layer was set to.

Well I took off from RivoltoAB (italy) and it was overcast (VIS LAYER UP TO 5000 IS 7 MILES). I climbed over 5000 it (VIS LAYER NOW REPORTS 20 miles), roughly 3 seconds later the sky snapped from grey to blue.

As I've explained earlier in the thread, the FS threshold for the grey/blue representation is 10 miles in FS2004 (about 4 in FS2002 and FS2000). This is the reason.

The problem is that as soon as I start seing the blue sky, I can also see the crisp and clean terrain below and no sign of overcast. It's like a clear day below.

All versions of FS have that effect. In FS2004 Microsoft did try to get around that problem by adding a very thin layer of stratus cloud at the top of the visibility layer. But many people didn't like that either because, being cloud and not visibility/mist/fog, it only gets drawn to the cloud drawing distance (one of the slider options), then stops dead with a straight edge. Looks very odd. Also, if there is rising ground within the affected area, the cloud cuts off as the ground rises above it and also looks very odd with a straight edge.

Because of these effects I think many of the replacement cloud graphics offered on assorted websites actually somehow defeat that thin cloud layer.

or is the normal way fs2004 does indeed behave?

Mostly, yes. There maybe something you can do, using an appropriate cloud graphics set and a good weather program, but in the end FS will not show blue skies with visibility 10 miles, but it will at 10.1 mies. To stop that sudden change you would either have to impose a maximum of 10 miles and never have blue skies, or a minimum of 10.1 and never have true mist or fog.

Hopefully this is a matter which will be addressed in the next version of FS, whenever that might be.

Regards

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

Mostly, yes. There maybe something you can do, using an appropriate cloud graphics set and a good weather program, but in the end FS will not show blue skies with visibility 10 miles, but it will at 10.1 mies. To stop that sudden change you would either have to impose a maximum of 10 miles and never have blue skies, or a minimum of 10.1 and never have true mist or fog.

Hopefully this is a matter which will be addressed in the next version of FS, whenever that might be.

Just wanted to inform you of the new results, that's all :wink:

by the way I tracked down the origin of the patched weather.dll :-)

It comes from FSM2.8.

here's the description based on FlightsimManager 2.8's help

-------------

Fix Fog Bug in Weather.dll (FS2004 only)

There is a minor bug in FS2004 weather.dll, which cause a strange fog effect with Metric METAR data and when there are some clouds in the area. This 10 mile or less visibility bug in which visibility haze mutates unrealistically into an inpenetrable overcast. If real-world weather reports visiblity of 10 miles or less, you would get an overcast sky even when it's supposed to be clear.

Note: This problem does not occur where metar visibility is in miles (such as USA, Canada).

Once patched, weather.dll will behave properly. However, if you wish to restore the original file, you can do so from the repository system.

Note: This update will work on both FS9 and FS9.1 (after the update)

------------

It seems to me a workaround similar to what 'random extend metar' does.

Or perhaps you might be able to understand it better :-)

Bye

Luca

[Pete Dowson]

It seems to me a workaround similar to what 'random extend metar' does.

Or at least what it does now:wink:

Regards,

Pete