Request: New Buttons For Saitek-Throttle Levers

[jordanal]

Hi Pete, I hope you and your family had a Merry Christmas/Holiday.

I received a new Saitek Yoke for Christmas and have spent some time over my Christmas vacation translating my old CH-Products FSUIPC.ini file to fit the new hardware. One thing that is really different between the CH Yoke/Throttle and the Saitek Yoke/Throttle is the fact that the Throttle axis do not "include" a momentary lever-switch within the range, but the switch resides fully "below" the minimum axis range. In other words, the detent for all levers is -16383 vice a higher position as on the CH throttles. This lever detent (-16383 - minimum axis) is also the top of a uncompressed lever-switch whereby the very minimum lever postion compresses the switch for as long as the lever is below the detent. Axis values remain -16383 even when the lever is below the detent, compressing the switch. So the old way of calibrating a reverse zone below the detent no longer works when using these new Saitek throttles. Therefor we must assign these digitial lever switches for Reversers and Mixture cutoffs.

Saitek Throttle travel depiction:

Lever-Max/Up  ----------------------    Lever Detent/Switch-Uncompress  ----------  Lever-Min/Switch-Compressed
  16383                                            -16383 / Switch-Off                    -16383 / Switch-ON

For the moment, assigning a repeat ® 65966 THROTTLE1_DECR to lever one for example, simulates holding the F2 key down to force the reverse. But the repeat rate is slow (even after setting various repeat rates) to reach full revearse. I also prefer not to flood repeate switch positions if I don't have to.

I would prefer/request "THROTTLE(x)_REV" variables that digitially turn on the reversers by sending (-4096) immediately when the switch is compressed. Releasing the lever switch (back up to detent) with 65967 THROTTLE1_CUT already works well and coincides nicely with the mimimum axis (-16383) in the detent.

So for throttles, I see a need for five new reverse-on variables (I'm guessing sending a -4096 to the throttle position when on):

THROTTLE_REV

THROTTLE1_REV

THROTTLE2_REV

THROTTLE3_REV

THROTTLE4_REV

The same is true for reversing the prop-pitch digitially with the prop-lever switches. Request five new reverse pitch variables for their respective compressed lever switches (again, assuming they would be sending a -4096 to force a reverse axis position):

PROP_PITCH_REV

PROP_PITCH1_REV

PROP_PITCH2_REV

PROP_PITCH3_REV

PROP_PITCH4_REV

I should note that I found the variable names for PROP_PITCH(x)_HI and PROP_PITCH(x)_LO to be backwards. I set the uncompress (U) position of the PROP lever switches to PROP_PITCH(x)_HI and this sets the prop levers to idle, again coinciding nicely with the minimum axis (-16383) in the detent. Assigning PROP_PITCH(x)_LO to the uncompressed switch would actually set the prop-lever axis to full/up/16383. These _HI/_LO names seem to be backwards much like the ZOOM_IN/OUT variables of which I know you're already aware.

As for the Mixture levers, assigning the compressed mixture lever switches (when bellow the detent) to MIXTURE(x)_LEAN works nicely for full cutoff of the fuel flow when below the detent (compressed switch). The problem with mixture levers on the Saitek is, there are no variables to assign digitially, the idle position of the mixture axis when uncompressing the lever switches, back to the detent position. We need five new MIXTURE(x)_IDLE variables that I'm assuming set a 8192 (idle) value when the respective lever switch is released (back up to the detent). This would work nicely with the bottom of the Mixture axis lever travel (-16383) detent, also sending the 8192 idle position:

MIXTURE_IDLE

MIXTURE1_IDLE

MIXTURE2_IDLE

MIXTURE3_IDLE

MIXTURE4_IDLE

My current FSUIPC.ini for a twin such as the default King-Air:

[Axes]
0=2X,256,F,65763,0,0,0   ;AXIS_AILERONS_SET
1=2Y,256,F,65762,0,0,0   ;AXIS_ELEVATOR_SET
2=2Z,256,F,66420,0,0,0   ;AXIS_THROTTLE1_SET
3=2U,256,F,66423,0,0,0   ;AXIS_THROTTLE2_SET
4=2V,256,F,66421,0,0,0   ;AXIS_PROPELLER1_SET
5=1X,256,F,66424,0,0,0   ;AXIS_PROPELLER2_SET
6=1Y,256,F,66422,0,0,0   ;AXIS_MIXTURE1_SET
7=1Z,256,F,66425,0,0,0   ;AXIS_MIXTURE2_SET
8=0X,256,F,66387,0,0,0   ;AXIS_LEFT_BRAKE_SET
9=0Y,256,F,66388,0,0,0   ;AXIS_RIGHT_BRAKE_SET
10=0Z,256,F,65764,0,0,0  ;AXIS_RUDDER_SET

[BUTTONS]
52=R2,20,C65966,0   ;THROTTLE1_DECR
53=U2,20,C65967,0   ;THROTTLE1_CUT
54=R2,21,C65971,0   ;THROTTLE2_DECR
55=U2,21,C65972,0   ;THROTTLE2_CUT
56=R2,22,C66006,0   ;PROP_PITCH1_DECR
57=U2,22,C66007,0   ;PROP_PITCH1_HI
58=R1,6,C66011,0    ;PROP_PITCH2_DECR
59=U1,6,C66012,0    ;PROP_PITCH2_HI
60=P1,7,C65987,0    ;MIXTURE1_LEAN
61=P1,8,C65992,0    ;MIXTURE2_LEAN

As always, thanks for your help Pete,

Repsctfully,

Al Jordan

[jordanal]

Bump...

Good morning Pete, I'm curious to know your initial thoughts to the above buttons request.

Regards,

AL

[Pete Dowson]

Axis values remain -16383 even when the lever is below the detent, compressing the switch. So the old way of calibrating a reverse zone below the detent no longer works when using these new Saitek throttles. Therefor we must assign these digitial lever switches for Reversers and Mixture cutoffs.

Mixture cut-off is okay, but just having a digital reverse on/off control doesn't give you any variable reverse action. Are you happy about that? If not why not just do as many folks do with ordinary levers without any buttons or switches at all, simple dedicate part of the range for reverse. I know some folks have made little detents for the centre of the idle are they chose, glueing a little bit of rubber in or near the slot.

For the moment, assigning a repeat ® 65966 THROTTLE1_DECR to lever one for example, simulates holding the F2 key down to force the reverse. But the repeat rate is slow (even after setting various repeat rates) to reach full revearse.

Better to send Throttle1_SET with a negative parameter. Providing you calibrate an adequate idle (0) range to ensure there are no axis changes, that will simply engage reverse immediately.

I would prefer/request "THROTTLE(x)_REV" variables that digitially turn on the reversers by sending (-4096) immediately when the switch is compressed.

There's no such digital control, just use the axis one being used by the axis in any case - ThrottleN set, with your desired parameter, -4096.

So for throttles, I see a need for five new reverse-on variables (I'm guessing sending a -4096 to the throttle position when on):

THROTTLE_REV

THROTTLE1_REV

THROTTLE2_REV

THROTTLE3_REV

THROTTLE4_REV

5? Not sure what you want here, but, no, -4096 is full reverse. If you want other values use other parameters between 0 and -4096.

The same is true for reversing the prop-pitch digitially with the prop-lever switches. Request five new reverse pitch variables for their respective compressed lever switches (again, assuming they would be sending a -4096 to force a reverse axis position):

No, use the relevant axis controls with the parameters as desired.

Regards

Pete

[jordanal]

Axis values remain -16383 even when the lever is below the detent, compressing the switch. So the old way of calibrating a reverse zone below the detent no longer works when using these new Saitek throttles. Therefor we must assign these digitial lever switches for Reversers and Mixture cutoffs.

Mixture cut-off is okay, but just having a digital reverse on/off control doesn't give you any variable reverse action. Are you happy about that? If not why not just do as many folks do with ordinary levers without any buttons or switches at all, simple dedicate part of the range for reverse. I know some folks have made little detents for the centre of the idle are they chose, glueing a little bit of rubber in or near the slot.

For the moment, assigning a repeat ® 65966 THROTTLE1_DECR to lever one for example, simulates holding the F2 key down to force the reverse. But the repeat rate is slow (even after setting various repeat rates) to reach full revearse.

Better to send Throttle1_SET with a negative parameter. Providing you calibrate an adequate idle (0) range to ensure there are no axis changes, that will simply engage reverse immediately.

I would prefer/request "THROTTLE(x)_REV" variables that digitially turn on the reversers by sending (-4096) immediately when the switch is compressed.

There's no such digital control, just use the axis one being used by the axis in any case - ThrottleN set, with your desired parameter, -4096.

So for throttles, I see a need for five new reverse-on variables (I'm guessing sending a -4096 to the throttle position when on):

THROTTLE_REV

THROTTLE1_REV

THROTTLE2_REV

THROTTLE3_REV

THROTTLE4_REV

5? Not sure what you want here, but, no, -4096 is full reverse. If you want other values use other parameters between 0 and -4096.

The same is true for reversing the prop-pitch digitially with the prop-lever switches. Request five new reverse pitch variables for their respective compressed lever switches (again, assuming they would be sending a -4096 to force a reverse axis position):

No, use the relevant axis controls with the parameters as desired.

Regards

Pete

True, it is unfortunite that Saitek did not inlculde part of the axis-output below the detent. But, one advantage is that I get really good lever control (resolution) becuase of the length of the lever travel over the range of the axis. No, I would not want to calibrate a ficticious idle somewhere above the detent. That would drive me nuts. I doubt I will take the time to physically modify the new Throttles, especially during the warrently period.

I thought sending button parameters to the axis was the best solution as well but when I tried to set the compressed lever switches to axis variables with a -4096 parameter to force a reverse, I kept getting really weird axis/lever movements.

Below is a log of another test I just performed with Prop_Pitch1. With the axis at 0, compressing lever button sends a -4096, but the lever visually jumps about half-way back up the axis. As you can see in the log below, the button commands -4096 parameter, but the axis immediately interferes with a 6144 parameter. Then when uncompressing the lever button with a 0 paremeter, the axis commands a 8192 parameter. Am I setting this correctly?

Regards,

AL

[buttons]89=P2,22,C66421,-4096 ;         AXIS_PROPELLER1_SET Rev90=U2,22,C66421,0 ;               AXIS_PROPELLER1_SET Idle(LOG)   740688 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 325 (0x00000145) PROP_PITCH1_SET   740828 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-13393   740828 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 1495 (0x000005d7) PROP_PITCH1_SET   741125 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-15083   741125 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 650 (0x0000028a) PROP_PITCH1_SET   741297 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-16384   741297 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 0 (0x00000000) PROP_PITCH1_SET   742797 Button changed: bRef=0, Joy=2, Btn=22, Pressed   742797 [buttons] 89=P2,22,C66421,-4096   742797 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-4096   742828 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 6144 (0x00001800) PROP_PITCH1_SET   744563 Button changed: bRef=0, Joy=2, Btn=22, Released   744563 [buttons] 90=U2,22,C66421,0   744563 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=0   744610 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 8192 (0x00002000) PROP_PITCH1_SET   746344 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-16123   746344 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 130 (0x00000082) PROP_PITCH1_SET   746469 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-11703   746469 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 2340 (0x00000924) PROP_PITCH1_SET   746641 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-8712   746672 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 3836 (0x00000efc) PROP_PITCH1_SET   747219 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-8972   747219 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 3706 (0x00000e7a) PROP_PITCH1_SET   747375 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-10532   747375 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 2926 (0x00000b6e) PROP_PITCH1_SET   747516 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-13003   747547 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 1690 (0x0000069a) PROP_PITCH1_SET   747688 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-15603   747688 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 390 (0x00000186) PROP_PITCH1_SET   747813 FS Control Sent: Ctrl=66421, Param=-16384   747813 ***  AXIS: Cntrl= 65923 (0x00010183), Param= 0 (0x00000000) PROP_PITCH1_SET

[Pete Dowson]

I thought sending button parameters to the axis was the best solution as well but when I tried to set the compressed lever switches to axis variables with a -4096 parameter to force a reverse, I kept getting really weird axis/lever movements.

That's because you are using the wrong controls. All the "Axis .... Set" controls only have positive input. They correspond to the controls FS assigns. This is why folks use FSUIPC to get reverse on the axis, as it converts the AXIScontrols into the older, original (FS98) controls which have a reverse range.

Try using the controls I suggested. Don't just stop at the "Axis ..." ones.

Pete

[bgoodwin]

New member with Saitek Pro setup and was searching for this kind of help. I'm a real novice but really impressed with the capacity of FSUIPC!

Would appreciate help assigning Pan View using FSUIPC. Can't seem to find the FS key assignment so assume there is not one and this must be done using another approach?

Many thanks Pete!

Bob Goodwin

[jordanal]

I thought sending button parameters to the axis was the best solution as well but when I tried to set the compressed lever switches to axis variables with a -4096 parameter to force a reverse, I kept getting really weird axis/lever movements.

That's because you are using the wrong controls. All the "Axis .... Set" controls only have positive input. They correspond to the controls FS assigns. This is why folks use FSUIPC to get reverse on the axis, as it converts the AXIScontrols into the older, original (FS98) controls which have a reverse range.

Try using the controls I suggested. Don't just stop at the "Axis ..." ones.

Pete

Um, if I'm following you correctly, I'm getting the same results (negetive values issue) using the following:

[Axes]...10=2V,256,F,65923,0,0,0 ;        PROP_PITCH1_SET[buttons]....89=P2,22,C65923,-4096 ;         PROP_PITCH1_SET Rev90=U2,22,C65923,0 ;               PROP_PITCH1_SET Idle

Regards,

AL

[jordanal]

New member with Saitek Pro setup and was searching for this kind of help. I'm a real novice but really impressed with the capacity of FSUIPC!

Would appreciate help assigning Pan View using FSUIPC. Can't seem to find the FS key assignment so assume there is not one and this must be done using another approach?

Many thanks Pete!

Bob Goodwin

Hi Bob,

Pete provides a good example of panning with the hat switch in the user guide with it's own special Note box on the subject (buttons 32 to 39). If you need further help with it, you might be better off starting a dedicated thread on the subject to get Pete's attention. This will also help keep the subjects a bit seperated and easier to read.

Al

[Pete Dowson]

Would appreciate help assigning Pan View using FSUIPC. Can't seem to find the FS key assignment so assume there is not one and this must be done using another approach?

What is it you expect "pan view" to do? There is, indeed, a control called "pan view" which can be assigned in FSUIPC. Remember that unlike in FSUIPC, in FS assignmernts are done using "explanatory" phrases in the local language whilst FSUIPC simply uses the sames as saved in CFG and INI files and the like.

I think "pan view" is the "point of view" control, assigned by FS to a POV Hat by defalut. POVs are neither axes nor buttons, though in FSUIPC you can assign them as either (or both).

Assigning a single button to "pan view" wouldn't really make any sense -- you'd need to provide the POV angle as a parameter. e.g Pan view 45 switches to the front right view. You could use several buttons for different views, and maybe "Pan reset" on the button release.

Regards

Pete

[jordanal]

I thought sending button parameters to the axis was the best solution as well but when I tried to set the compressed lever switches to axis variables with a -4096 parameter to force a reverse, I kept getting really weird axis/lever movements.

That's because you are using the wrong controls. All the "Axis .... Set" controls only have positive input. They correspond to the controls FS assigns. This is why folks use FSUIPC to get reverse on the axis, as it converts the AXIScontrols into the older, original (FS98) controls which have a reverse range.

Try using the controls I suggested. Don't just stop at the "Axis ..." ones.

Pete

Um, if I'm following you correctly, I'm getting the same results (negetive values issue) using the following:

[Axes]...10=2V,256,F,65923,0,0,0 ;        PROP_PITCH1_SET[buttons]....89=P2,22,C65923,-4096 ;         PROP_PITCH1_SET Rev90=U2,22,C65923,0 ;               PROP_PITCH1_SET Idle

Regards,

AL

Ahah! I got it, changed the above axis to "Direct" - "10=2V,256,D,17,0,0,0" and that worked! -4096 reverses the axis. But now I'm gonna have issues as I mostly use the PMDG and Level-D advanced aicraft and I know these don't like direct-mode axis...

Al

[Pete Dowson]

Um, if I'm following you correctly, I'm getting the same results (negetive values issue) using the following:

[Axes]...10=2V,256,F,65923,0,0,0 ;        PROP_PITCH1_SET[buttons]....89=P2,22,C65923,-4096 ;         PROP_PITCH1_SET Rev90=U2,22,C65923,0 ;               PROP_PITCH1_SET Idle

Not sure what you mean by "negative values issue", but I've checked here with simple button operation, and I was wrong about the values being 0 to -4096. With those controls you need 0 to -16384. They are being scaled to match the specific aircraft afterwards. With -4096 I get a 1/4th of the reverse.

I've only tested with THROTTLE1_SET controls, but the same should apply to PITCH1 and MIXTURE1 too.

Ahah! I got it, changed the above axis to "Direct" - "10=2V,256,D,17,0,0,0" and that worked! -4096 reverses the axis. But now I'm gonna have issues as I mostly use the PMDG and Level-D advanced aicraft and I know these don't like direct-mode axis...

I'm not using "direct" assignment here, only "Send to FS as normal axis".

Regards

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

Aha! I know what is going on ...

... these controls are being sent to FS, as expected, but then, when you aren't using "Direct" assignments to FSUIPC, FSUIPC is calibrating the values you are sending. It of coursecan't tell which controls are arriving from FS and which from itself.

This explains why I had to use -16383 -- FSUIPC is doing the scaling to -4096.

For the THROTTLES there's an easy way around that -- check the "Exclude THROTTLEn SET" option on the 4 throttles page. That was provided because some add-on aircraft use those controls with the correct values and don't want them changed.

Unfortunately that isn't an option at present for MIXTUREn or PROPn controls. I can add it, but as you've found, you can get around this by direct assignment. For throttles you can check that option and use the 0 to -4096 range, for the others you can use Direct as LevelD and PMDG jets don't need those.

[Now forget I talked about 0 to -16383! ;-) ]

Pete

[jordanal]

Aha! I know what is going on ...

... these controls are being sent to FS, as expected, but then, when you aren't using "Direct" assignments to FSUIPC, FSUIPC is calibrating the values you are sending. It of coursecan't tell which controls are arriving from FS and which from itself.

This explains why I had to use -16383 -- FSUIPC is doing the scaling to -4096.

For the THROTTLES there's an easy way around that -- check the "Exclude THROTTLEn SET" option on the 4 throttles page. That was provided because some add-on aircraft use those controls with the correct values and don't want them changed.

Unfortunately that isn't an option at present for MIXTUREn or PROPn controls. I can add it, but as you've found, you can get around this by direct assignment. For throttles you can check that option and use the 0 to -4096 range, for the others you can use Direct as LevelD and PMDG jets don't need those.

[Now forget I talked about 0 to -16383! ;-) ]

Pete

LOL, you keep replying before I can decide what I'm gonna test next! Glad you have it figured out. I think at this point, I'm gonna change over to "Direct" axis for now and see if I have any problems with the advance aircraft. I just went back through the Level-D forums and it appears there was an issue a while back but it was reported to be fixed in one of your later FSUIPC updates.

Adding the exlude to Mixture and Prop does sound like a good approach though, in case "Direct" remains problematic.

BTW, having disabled joysticks within the FS menu, which is the prefered method for axis in FSCUIPC, "Send to FS Normal" or "Direct"? Is one less overhead, or perhaps more efficient, than the other?

Thanks again for your help Pete. Happy New Year to you and yours...

Regards,

Al Jordan

[Pete Dowson]

which is the prefered method for axis in FSCUIPC, "Send to FS Normal" or "Direct"? Is one less overhead, or perhaps more efficient, than the other?

Well, direct assignment is less circuitous of course. With assignment to an FS control ISUIPC picks up the value from the joystick, sends it as a normal control to FS where it is trapped by FSUIPC for calibration and then sent back. The term "direct" means just that, bypassing FS until the end value is computed.

Regards

Pete