Errors in MakeRunways 4.34

[FlyingAxx]

Hello Pete,

Being a satisfied user of some of your products for many years now, I recently searched the WWW for a tool listing all the airport and runway details being installed in my FS2004, in order to generate a database for some of my payware aircraft (mainly I'm missing quite lot of airports in ISG1). It was just bothering me flying around without being able to generate proper flightplans in my FMS. Not really surprisingly I tumbled over your MakeRunways (latest edition) and it worked like a charm (even if it took a while but, 125 MB for a resulting TXT-file is something, isn't it?). However, today I detected some minor differences between the content of the "Runways.txt" and the corresponding "runways.xml". I only found them because I wanted to filter the results by Rwy length and by opting out some runway surfaces (like water).

Some examples:

• 
  Runways.txt --> runways.xml (ICAO)
  SHALE --> GRAVEL (SWPB, SWMU)
  BRICK --> UNKNOWN (FTTU)
  BITOUMIOUS --> ASPHALT (GQPP, GQPA)
  SAND --> GRAVEL (GQPA)
  PLANKS --> UNKNOWN (VVDB); remark: after UNKNOWN in Runway.txt always a comma (",") is missing
  STEEL_MATS --> MATS (KNJM); not really wrong, however the MS BGLCOMP SDK says STEELMATS. BTW, same with OIL_TREATED --> OIL-TREATED, the SDK says OILTREATED
  ICE --> SNOW (NZPG)
  TARMAC --> ASPHALT (GOOY)
  MACADAM --> ASPHALT (GOSS); this could be (virtually) deadly for bigger a/c - and for anybody standing behind :shock:
  

I would be happy if you could find out how to solve these issues.

Kind Regards,

Axel

[Pete Dowson]

However, today I detected some minor differences between the content of the "Runways.txt" and the corresponding "runways.xml". I only found them because I wanted to filter the results by Rwy length and by opting out some runway surfaces (like water).

The TXT file is only there for diagnostics, general information. The target database files are the CSVs and so on.

• 
  Runways.txt --> runways.xml (ICAO)
  SHALE --> GRAVEL (SWPB, SWMU)
  BRICK --> UNKNOWN (FTTU)
  BITOUMIOUS --> ASPHALT (GQPP, GQPA)
  SAND --> GRAVEL (GQPA)
  PLANKS --> UNKNOWN (VVDB); remark: after UNKNOWN in Runway.txt always a comma (",") is missing
  STEEL_MATS --> MATS (KNJM); not really wrong, however the MS BGLCOMP SDK says STEELMATS. BTW, same with OIL_TREATED --> OIL-TREATED, the SDK says OILTREATED
  ICE --> SNOW (NZPG)
  TARMAC --> ASPHALT (GOOY)
  MACADAM --> ASPHALT (GOSS); this could be (virtually) deadly for bigger a/c - and for anybody standing behind :shock:
  

Which of those are wrong? It looks like your BGL to XML converter cannot differentiate between Bituminous, Tarmac and Macadam for one, nor between Shale and Sand, and gets Unknown in several places. Your XML decoder is mostly different words for the same things. In the BGLs these are just numbers. If you don't like the words, use the numbers. I don't know of any application which is using this stuff, it is merely logged for interest.

How can "macadam" and "asphalt" "... be (virtually) deadly .."? As far as I am aware they are quite similar things, and may even be the same.(Wikipedia: "Tarmac (short for tarmacadam, a portmanteau for tar-penetration macadam) is a type of highway surface. Tarmac refers to a material patented by Edgar Purnell Hooley in 1901. The term is also used, with varying degrees of correctness, for a variety of other materials, including tar-grouted macadam, Tarvia, bituminous surface treatments and even modern asphalt concrete." Als "Asphalt or bitumen can sometimes be confused with tar, which is a similar black thermo-plastic material produced by the destructive distillation of coal. During the early- and mid-twentieth century when town gas was produced, tar was a readily available product and extensively used as the binder for road aggregates. The addition of tar to macadam roads led to the word tarmac, which is now used in common parlance to refer to road making materials. However, since the 1970s, when natural gas succeeded town gas, asphalt (bitumen) has completely overtaken the use of tar in these applications.")

I would be happy if you could find out how to solve these issues.

Sorry. For one I don't see any "issues" here, and for another I have many other things to do. The databases produced by MakeRunways are suited to those for whom it was designed. The decoding was based on a well known document produced by analysis of BGLs, originally for FS9 and later updated for FSX. I think all this XML stuff was much later. If you prefer XML decodes, why not use those?

[LATER]

For your additional enlightenment, these are the documented definitions for FS9. Those for FS2002 and before are less extensive, and don't map directly.

#define SURFACE_CEMENT 0x0000

#define SURFACE_CONCRETE 0x0000

#define SURFACE_GRASS 0x0001

#define SURFACE_WATER 0x0002

#define SURFACE_ASPHALT 0x0004

#define SURFACE_CLAY 0x0007

#define SURFACE_SNOW 0x0008

#define SURFACE_ICE 0x0009

#define SURFACE_DIRT 0x000C

#define SURFACE_CORAL 0x000D

#define SURFACE_GRAVEL 0x000E

#define SURFACE_OIL_TREATED 0x000F

#define SURFACE_STEEL_MATS 0x0010

#define SURFACE_BITUMINOUS 0x0011

#define SURFACE_BRICK 0x0012

#define SURFACE_MACADAM 0x0013

#define SURFACE_PLANKS 0x0014

#define SURFACE_SAND 0x0015

#define SURFACE_SHALE 0x0016

#define SURFACE_TARMAC 0x0017

#define SURFACE_UNKNOWN 0x00FE

I translated this into:

"CONCRETE", // 0

"GRASS", // 1

"WATER", // 2

"UNKNOWN 3",// 3

"ASPHALT", // 4

"UNKNOWN 5",// 5

"UNKNOWN 6",// 6

"CLAY", // 7

"SNOW", // 8

"ICE", // 9

"UNKNOWN 10",// 10

"UNKNOWN 11",// 11

"DIRT", // 12

"CORAL", // 13

"GRAVEL", // 14

"OIL_TREATED",// 15

"STEEL_MATS",// 16

"BITUMINOUS",// 17

"BRICK", // 18

"MACADAM", // 19

"PLANKS", // 20

"SAND", // 21

"SHALE", // 22

"TARMAC", // 23

You'll see there should be no comma immediately after "UNKNOWN" as there is a format number as part of the string.

Regards

Pete

[FlyingAxx]

Peter,

There was no, absolutely no offence intended and it seems to me that you got that impression. I'm no native English Speaker and some what I have written might have led to misunderstandings. Without your tool I would have been lost and I'm happy if I could explain what I want to do after commenting some of your remarks (a few only):

The TXT file is only there for diagnostics, general information. The target database files are the CSVs and so on.

That's clearly stated and I did nothing else.

<...list before...>

Which of those are wrong? It looks like your BGL to XML converter cannot differentiate between Bituminous, Tarmac and Macadam for one, nor between Shale and Sand, and gets Unknown in several places. Your XML decoder is mostly different words for the same things.

Oops, I did not use my own converter but the results of your tool: first the XML output and then the TXT (reference) from the same run of MakeRunways. The differences between both of them where obvious.

I don't know of any application which is using this stuff, it is merely logged for interest.

My intention is, to use the surface information as a filter for a tool (under development for my own use) that is able to create a database for at least one payware FMS with lacks many of the existing airports now. I wanted to get rid not only of "Water" but of some other types which a jet engine propelled aircraft should avoid in normal operation (e.g. "Sand"?). The FMC itself does not require this information and it will be not in the data as well.

How can "macadam" and "asphalt" "... be (virtually) deadly .."? As far as I am aware they are quite similar things, and may even be the same.(Wikipedia: "Tarmac (short for tarmacadam, a portmanteau for tar-penetration macadam) is a type of highway surface.

My understanding of "Macadam" is a that of of an unbound surface which could be quite dusty an where some material could be moved by prop wash or jet blast. "Tarmac" I understand as basically the same but bound by tar. BTW, I used Wiki as source as well. In most cases the seen differences would cause no harm to my intended filter, except the Macadam one.

Sorry. For one I don't see any "issues" here, and for another I have many other things to do. The databases produced by MakeRunways are suited to those for whom it was designed. The decoding was based on a well known document produced by analysis of BGLs, originally for FS9 and later updated for FSX. I think all this XML stuff was much later. If you prefer XML decodes, why not use those?

Peter, again: I used your XML as basis and I'm even no programmer at all, thus I'm not able to write my own routines for reading out the BGL's. However, thanks for giving further explanations. In my opinion your translations are correct for the (for reference use only) text file but not the same in the XML output.

Example from "runway.txt":

• 
  Airport GOSS N16:02:58.9822 W016:27:39.9993 10ft
  City Name="St Louis"
  Airport Name="St Louis"
  in file: Scenery\Afri\scenery\AP943260.BGL
  Runway 18 /36 centre: N16:03:00.9259 W016:27:40.0587 10ft
  Start 18 : N16:03:29.7245 W016:27:43.9661 10ft Hdg: 172.6 true
  Computed start 18 : Lat 16.058720 Long -16.462277
  Start 36 : N16:02:32.0949 W016:27:36.1529 10ft Hdg: 352.6 true
  Computed start 36 : Lat 16.041794 Long -16.459980
  Hdg: 172.570 true (MagVar -10.000), MACADAM, 6223 x 148 ft
  {snip}
  

same from "runways.xml":

• 
  
  St Louis
  St Louis
  -16.461111
  16.049723
  10
  -10.000
  
  6223
  182.570
  Asphalt
  
  16.058720
  -16.462276
  
  {snip}
  

You'll see there should be no comma immediately after "UNKNOWN" as there is a format number as part of the string.

This is an example from the RUNWAY.TXT

• Airport VA1S N24:25:52.2931 E074:52:05.0010 1600ft
  City Name="Nimach"
  Airport Name="Nimach"
  in file: Scenery\asia\scenery\AP967230.BGL
  Runway 14 /32 centre: N24:25:52.3255 E074:52:05.0478 1600ft
  Start 14 : N24:26:04.7001 E074:51:53.6311 1600ft Hdg: 140.0 true
  Computed start 14 : Lat 24.434996 Long 74.864577
  Start 32 : N24:25:39.9185 E074:52:16.4644 1600ft Hdg: 320.0 true
  Computed start 32 : Lat 24.427408 Long 74.871568
  Hdg: 140.004 true (MagVar 0.000), UNKNOWN 254, 3610 x 75 ft
  {snip}

Peter, it seems that I did not make a friend with my posting. Please take it as a minor remark and forget about it if you like. Again, your tool is great for the intended use and I started using it for FS Meteo and for Radar Contact.

Regards,

Axel

[FlyingAxx]

Peter,

There was no, absolutely no offence intended and it seems to me that you got that impression. I'm no native English Speaker and some what I have written might have led to misunderstandings. Without your tool I would have been lost and I'm happy if I could explain what I want to do after commenting some of your remarks (a few only):

The TXT file is only there for diagnostics, general information. The target database files are the CSVs and so on.

That's clearly stated and I did nothing else.

<...list before...>

Which of those are wrong? It looks like your BGL to XML converter cannot differentiate between Bituminous, Tarmac and Macadam for one, nor between Shale and Sand, and gets Unknown in several places. Your XML decoder is mostly different words for the same things.

Oops, I did not use my own converter but the results of your tool: first the XML output and then the TXT (reference) from the same run of MakeRunways. The differences between both of them where obvious.

I don't know of any application which is using this stuff, it is merely logged for interest.

My intention is, to use the surface information as a filter for a tool (under development for my own use) that is able to create a database for at least one payware FMS with lacks many of the existing airports now. I wanted to get rid not only of "Water" but of some other types which a jet engine propelled aircraft should avoid in normal operation (e.g. "Sand"?). The FMC itself does not require this information and it will be not in the data as well.

How can "macadam" and "asphalt" "... be (virtually) deadly .."? As far as I am aware they are quite similar things, and may even be the same.(Wikipedia: "Tarmac (short for tarmacadam, a portmanteau for tar-penetration macadam) is a type of highway surface.

My understanding of "Macadam" is a that of of an unbound surface which could be quite dusty an where some material could be moved by prop wash or jet blast. "Tarmac" I understand as basically the same but bound by tar. BTW, I used Wiki as source as well. In most cases the seen differences would cause no harm to my intended filter, except the Macadam one.

Sorry. For one I don't see any "issues" here, and for another I have many other things to do. The databases produced by MakeRunways are suited to those for whom it was designed. The decoding was based on a well known document produced by analysis of BGLs, originally for FS9 and later updated for FSX. I think all this XML stuff was much later. If you prefer XML decodes, why not use those?

Peter, again: I used your XML as basis and I'm even no programmer at all, thus I'm not able to write my own routines for reading out the BGL's. However, thanks for giving further explanations. In my opinion your translations are correct for the (for reference use only) text file but not the same in the XML output.

Example from "runway.txt":

• 
  Airport GOSS N16:02:58.9822 W016:27:39.9993 10ft
  City Name="St Louis"
  Airport Name="St Louis"
  in file: Scenery\Afri\scenery\AP943260.BGL
  Runway 18 /36 centre: N16:03:00.9259 W016:27:40.0587 10ft
  Start 18 : N16:03:29.7245 W016:27:43.9661 10ft Hdg: 172.6 true
  Computed start 18 : Lat 16.058720 Long -16.462277
  Start 36 : N16:02:32.0949 W016:27:36.1529 10ft Hdg: 352.6 true
  Computed start 36 : Lat 16.041794 Long -16.459980
  Hdg: 172.570 true (MagVar -10.000), MACADAM, 6223 x 148 ft
  {snip}
  

same from "runways.xml":

• 
  
  St Louis
  St Louis
  -16.461111
  16.049723
  10
  -10.000
  
  6223
  182.570
  Asphalt
  
  16.058720
  -16.462276
  
  {snip}
  

You'll see there should be no comma immediately after "UNKNOWN" as there is a format number as part of the string.

This is an example from the "runway.txt"

• Airport VA1S N24:25:52.2931 E074:52:05.0010 1600ft
  City Name="Nimach"
  Airport Name="Nimach"
  in file: Scenery\asia\scenery\AP967230.BGL
  Runway 14 /32 centre: N24:25:52.3255 E074:52:05.0478 1600ft
  Start 14 : N24:26:04.7001 E074:51:53.6311 1600ft Hdg: 140.0 true
  Computed start 14 : Lat 24.434996 Long 74.864577
  Start 32 : N24:25:39.9185 E074:52:16.4644 1600ft Hdg: 320.0 true
  Computed start 32 : Lat 24.427408 Long 74.871568
  Hdg: 140.004 true (MagVar 0.000), UNKNOWN 254, 3610 x 75 ft ;here the comma is missing, following the syntax of all other materials
  {snip}

Peter, it seems that I did not make a friend with my posting. Please take it as a minor remark and forget about it if you like. Again, your tool is great for the intended use and I started using it for FS Meteo and for Radar Contact. It can be used even for my intended purposes. I only hope that my examples above might have clarified my original intentions.

Regards,

Axel

P.S. You might contact me via email for further details.

[Pete Dowson]

There was no, absolutely no offence intended and it seems to me that you got that impression.

None taken, I assure you. Sorry if you got such an impression.

Oops, I did not use my own converter but the results of your tool: first the XML output and then the TXT (reference) from the same run of MakeRunways. The differences between both of them where obvious.

Ah, the XML output was something not to my specifications but specifically to those provided by the person requesting it. Sorry if it isn't to your liking or is puzzling. It seems to suit the application they had.

Peter, again: I used your XML as basis

Not *my* XML, but the XML produced from the same data is accordance with requiremnets given to me for that specific application.

There is a BGL2XML converter available someplace. You might wish to use that if you have more general or perhaps more accurate needs?

In my opinion your translations are correct for the (for reference use only) text file but not the same in the XML output.

Right. Sorry, I don't know why the user of the XML wanted those specific conversions. I can ask them if you like. Or maybe it is some sort of error after all. Now I understand you mean the XML from MakeRunways I can check.

Note that each particular file output by the MakeRunways program was done for a specific application -- except for the TXT file which is done to help folks determine what they actually need (and for me to debug things in case of problems). The only file I actually use myself is the FStarRC one -- in fact I originally wrote the program to produce the database for my FStarRC program for FliteStar flight plan conversions.

You'll see there should be no comma immediately after "UNKNOWN" as there is a format number as part of the string.

This is an example from the RUNWAY.TXT

...

Hdg: 140.004 true (MagVar 0.000), UNKNOWN 254, 3610 x 75 ft

{snip}

Correct. The name of the surface type here is "UNKNOWN 254". 254 is the code which is unknown. The comma clearly follows!

Peter, it seems that I did not make a friend with my posting.

I think you misinterpret my responses as if I am upset or something. I am not. I certainly don't understand where you are coming from, what your criticisms amount to, or why you'd call them errors (which you do even in the subject title). The program is simply converting BGL data into different forms for different people/applications according to their stated requirements. If they are not happy, they tell me.

Also, apologies for one misunderstanding, as I originally assumed you were using something like the freeware BGL2XML converter to compare my BGL analysis with another. Now that I understand your XML stuff was referring to the (very recently added and quite forgotten, sorry) extra file produced by the program, I will certainly re-check what tabulation it is listing for each to make sure there is no error. However, as far as I recall the conversions I provided to the user requesting the XML file were specifically to their spec. I might be wrong though and will re-check tomorrow.

Thank you,

Regards

Pete

[FlyingAxx]

Hi Pete,

Thanks foe your response. My little world is now in a better shape again :D

Correct. The name of the surface type here is "UNKNOWN 254". 254 is the code which is unknown. The comma clearly follows!

I should have seen it myself. :oops: Oh my, I need holidays...

Regards,

Axel

[Pete Dowson]

I will certainly re-check what tabulation it is listing for each to make sure there is no error.

Okay, I have checked into this to see what is going on.

Basically it is all in the name of ongoing compatibility. The list of surfaces I gave above is applicable to the "new BGL" structures from FS9 onwards. The surfaces in the XML output are those which have been available in FS since at least FS98. MakeRunways has been going since then, or even before, and its files are compatible across the whoe range of FS versions FS98 to FSX/ESP.

The translation from the more extensive new surface types into the old ones was rather arbitrary, and I may have got it wrong. Here it is:

NEW TYPE                           OLD TYPE

"CONCRETE" //  0						2  concrete
"GRASS", // 1						 4  grass
"WATER", // 2							10 water
"UNKNOWN 3",// 3						0  unknown
"ASPHALT", // 4						 3  asphalt
"UNKNOWN 5",// 5						0  unknown
"UNKNOWN 6",// 6						0  unknown
"CLAY", // 7							 1  dirt
"SNOW", // 8							 8  snow
"ICE", // 9							 8  snow
"UNKNOWN 10",// 10					0  unknown
"UNKNOWN 11",// 11					0  unknown
"DIRT", // 12							1  dirt
"CORAL", // 13							9  coral
"GRAVEL", // 14							5  gravel
"OIL_TREATED",// 15					6  oil-treated
"STEEL_MATS",// 16					7  mats
"BITUMINOUS",// 17					3  asphalt
"BRICK", // 18							0  unknown
"MACADAM", // 19						3  asphalt
"PLANKS", // 20							0  unknown
"SAND", // 21								5  gravel
"SHALE", // 22							5  gravel
"TARMAC", // 23							3  asphalt

Now those on the right are all that are available to maintain inter-FS compatibility. Maybe I've made a bad choice there somewhere. For instance, should I class "sand" more as "dirt"? It depends, surely, how fine it is. And how firm? Firm fine sand is maybe more like dirt, but gravel is probably a more apt description for many beaches, and it may be safer assuming the worst case.

As for tar/oil based gravel (or aggregate), for all those I only have asphalt as the closest. As far as I am aware "macadam" is closer to that than to any of the others. Again, from Wikipedia:

Macadam is a type of road construction pioneered by the Scotsman John Loudon McAdam in around 1820. The method simplified what had been considered state-of-the-art at that point. Single sized aggregate with a coating of binder as a cementing agent are mixed in an open-structured macadam.

Surely the "binding" stops it being loose (it "cements" it), so "gravel" would be inappropriate. It looks and acts most like asphalt compared to any of the others.

As for Snow and Ice, there's no Ice choice for compatibility, but I think most ice-based runways are probably compacted snow in any case.

If you really do think I've made a mistake, do point it out and explain, please.

Regards

Pete

[FlyingAxx]

Basically it is all in the name of ongoing compatibility. The list of surfaces I gave above is applicable to the "new BGL" structures from FS9 onwards. The surfaces in the XML output are those which have been available in FS since at least FS98. MakeRunways has been going since then, or even before, and its files are compatible across the whoe range of FS versions FS98 to FSX/ESP.

{snip}

Now those on the right are all that are available to maintain inter-FS compatibility. Maybe I've made a bad choice there somewhere. For instance, should I class "sand" more as "dirt"? It depends, surely, how fine it is. And how firm? Firm fine sand is maybe more like dirt, but gravel is probably a more apt description for many beaches, and it may be safer assuming the worst case.{snip}

As for tar/oil based gravel (or aggregate), for all those I only have asphalt as the closest. As far as I am aware "macadam" is closer to that than to any of the others.

If you really do think I've made a mistake, do point it out and explain, please.

Regards

Pete

Hello Pete,

In the name of compatibility your choices are all right for me. I didn't realise those possible differences even knowing that we all are dealing with a Microsoft product line. :wink:

I'm feel now somehow sheepish that I posted my stuff under an error headline, sorry for that. However, your remarks had been helpful and instructive, thanks.

[LATER]

Do you use public available BGL-analysers in order to handle the old file formats as well as the new ones? As far as I looked for such they all seem to have some limitations. Can you give me a hint?

Regards,

Axel

[Pete Dowson]

Do you use public available BGL-analysers in order to handle the old file formats as well as the new ones? As far as I looked for such they all seem to have some limitations. Can you give me a hint?

Actually my main source for BGL formats has always been the publications by Winfried Orthmann. He did very comprehensive guides for Fs2002 and FS2004. I seem to only have printed copies these days -- I think the original DOC files were lost on one of my older PCs a few years ago. If you Google on his name I think you may still find them.

Regards

Pete

[FlyingAxx]

For your additional enlightenment, these are the documented definitions for FS9. Those for FS2002 and before are less extensive, and don't map directly.

#define SURFACE_CEMENT 0x0000

#define SURFACE_CONCRETE 0x0000

#define SURFACE_GRASS 0x0001

#define SURFACE_WATER 0x0002

#define SURFACE_ASPHALT 0x0004

#define SURFACE_CLAY 0x0007

#define SURFACE_SNOW 0x0008

#define SURFACE_ICE 0x0009

#define SURFACE_DIRT 0x000C

#define SURFACE_CORAL 0x000D

#define SURFACE_GRAVEL 0x000E

#define SURFACE_OIL_TREATED 0x000F

#define SURFACE_STEEL_MATS 0x0010

#define SURFACE_BITUMINOUS 0x0011

#define SURFACE_BRICK 0x0012

#define SURFACE_MACADAM 0x0013

#define SURFACE_PLANKS 0x0014

#define SURFACE_SAND 0x0015

#define SURFACE_SHALE 0x0016

#define SURFACE_TARMAC 0x0017

#define SURFACE_UNKNOWN 0x00FE

I translated this into: [EDIT by Axel how AFCAD" translates it]

"CONCRETE", // 0

"GRASS", // 1

"WATER", // 2

"UNKNOWN 3",// 3 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "GRASS"

"ASPHALT", // 4

"UNKNOWN 5",// 5 ("GRASS 2"), looks like "GRASS"

"UNKNOWN 6",// 6 ("GRASS 3"), looks like "GRASS"

"CLAY", // 7

"SNOW", // 8

"ICE", // 9

"UNKNOWN 10",// 10 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "CONCRETE"

"UNKNOWN 11",// 11 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "CONCRETE"

"DIRT", // 12

"CORAL", // 13

"GRAVEL", // 14

"OIL_TREATED",// 15

"STEEL_MATS",// 16

"BITUMINOUS",// 17

"BRICK", // 18

"MACADAM", // 19

"PLANKS", // 20

"SAND", // 21

"SHALE", // 22

"TARMAC", // 23

Hello Pete,

Just to bring it to the big final, only if you or anybody else is interested:

I made some trials in the middle of nowhere by using AFCAD2 to create a fictive airport just having two known runway surfaces, concrete and grass and those which are not in the official list you quoted above. Then I checked with a Hex-Editor the file and the results are shown above in red. The last listed officially, SURFACE_UNKNOWN --> 0x00FE seems to be used for airports without a visible runway strip. There is a (flattened) area and sometimes just a windsock (I'm not sure any more).

Winfried Orthmann's de-compiler leaves the output just blank, and "SceneGenX Scenery Generator for FS2004" translates 0x0003, 0x0005 and 0x0006 to "GRASS" , 0x000A to "CEMENT" (all are appropriate I think) but 0x000B to "FOREST" :? which is wired (maybe FSX?).

However, I can only conclude that I can live with the given mapping for my purposes and I like to thank you again for your efforts (and patience).

Regards,

Axel

[Pete Dowson]

I made some trials in the middle of nowhere by using AFCAD2 to create a fictive airport just having two known runway surfaces, concrete and grass and those which are not in the official list you quoted above. Then I checked with a Hex-Editor the file and the results are shown above in red.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. How did you define those unknown surfaces when making this fictitious airport? In other words, to get these:

"UNKNOWN 3",// 3 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "GRASS"
"UNKNOWN 5",// 5 ("GRASS 2"), looks like "GRASS"
"UNKNOWN 6",// 6 ("GRASS 3"), looks like "GRASS"
"UNKNOWN 10",// 10 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "CONCRETE"
"UNKNOWN 11",// 11 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "CONCRETE"

what do you set in AFCAD2?

And when you say "looks like" do you mean the actual appearance on screen, or are you copying that comment from AFCAD2?

I don't mind replacing the UNKNOWNS with better names if they are true, but I need to understand better first.

Regards

Pete

[FlyingAxx]

Hello Pete,

Sorry for being too brief - I've had a bike accident a couple of days ago and broke my left clavicle. Now I have only one hand left for treating mouse and keyboard. :(

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. How did you define those unknown surfaces when making this fictitious airport? In other words, to get these:

"UNKNOWN 3",// 3 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "GRASS"

"UNKNOWN 5",// 5 ("GRASS 2"), looks like "GRASS"
"UNKNOWN 6",// 6 ("GRASS 3"), looks like "GRASS"
"UNKNOWN 10",// 10 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "CONCRETE"
"UNKNOWN 11",// 11 ("UNKNOWN"), looks like "CONCRETE"

what do you set in AFCAD2?

I first created a new airport in AFCAD and defined a couple of runways ("insert runway") each with a rotation of 10 degrees around its centre. Then I defined the first two of them with common surfaces (Rwy 36 -> Concrete, Rwy 01 -> Grass). Then I defined the next (all from AFCAD's pull-down menu) with all the "doubtful/uncommon" surfaces: Rwy 02 -> Unknown, Rwy 03 -> Grass2, Rwy 04 -> Grass3, Rwy 05 -> Unknown2, Rwy 06 -> Unknown3. I did not add any other stuff like taxiways, aprons or starting points.

Then I looked after the results and that might answer your next question:

And when you say "looks like" do you mean the actual appearance on screen, or are you copying that comment from AFCAD2?

As I wanted to see the way it was decoded I looked into the resulting BGL with a HEX-editor (what I never did before) and found what is documented in the following picture(s).

Well, it's barely recognisable I guess. The HEX-figures are well corresponding with the "UNKNOWN nn" in your "Runway.txt". The only thing I did not find was anything that corresponds to "UNKNOWN 254". However, I opened such an airport with AFCAD (all are stock, as far as I saw it), an example is VA1S in India (contained in AP967230.BGL) having a 3610 x 75 runway, I found the runway surface blank (nothing filled in) which AFAIK cannot be achieved when creating something with AFCAD. The corresponding Hex-string is "FE 00 0E", bingo! The result is shown in the next picture, an existing but invisible strip:

I don't mind replacing the UNKNOWNS with better names if they are true, but I need to understand better first.

What I did not was testing with any other sim besides FS2004. However, hopefully this was filling the gaps in common understanding, though.

Regards,

Axel

[Pete Dowson]

Sorry for being too brief - I've had a bike accident a couple of days ago and broke my left clavicle. Now I have only one hand left for treating mouse and keyboard. :(

Oh dear. I hope it mends quickly for you!

Then I defined the next (all from AFCAD's pull-down menu) with all the "doubtful/uncommon" surfaces: Rwy 02 -> Unknown, Rwy 03 -> Grass2, Rwy 04 -> Grass3, Rwy 05 -> Unknown2, Rwy 06 -> Unknown3.

Ah, so AFCAD allows you to set these, using these "unknown" or "grass" names. I see.

I might, just for the XML output, use the Grass and Concrete names for these otherwise unknowns, and perhaps add something to the TXT log. But not immediately -- I've just released version 4.35 which was needed to correct the XML when airport or city names with non-UTF-8 (ASCII) characters are included.

Thanks for the info,

Regards

Pete

[FlyingAxx]

I might, just for the XML output, use the Grass and Concrete names for these otherwise unknowns, and perhaps add something to the TXT log. But not immediately -- I've just released version 4.35 which was needed to correct the XML when airport or city names with non-UTF-8 (ASCII) characters are included.

Hello Pete,

Maybe a "tranlator" for AFCAD once in the header of the "Runway.txt" might be sufficient and could contain as well a remark regarding "UNKNOWN 254". :idea: It would be even satisfying if all this stuff would be in the right context part of the ReadMe.

Regards,

Axel

[Pete Dowson]

Maybe a "tranlator" for AFCAD once in the header of the "Runway.txt"

Sorry, I don't understand what good that would do anyone. Better to keep to context. Really the ONLY output which has application relevance here is the XML file. Any comment in the log should surely be kept in its place.

And, BTW, who would deliberately use these unknown surfaces or "grass 2" etc in any case, when there are perfectly good ones already correctly labelled / documented?

could contain as well a remark regarding "UNKNOWN 254".

Sorry, I've no idea what on Earth I could say, other than it is an Unkonwn surface with code 254, which is what it says!?

:idea: It would be even satisfying if all this stuff would be in the right context part of the ReadMe.

Sorry, no. If I start on that route I'd eventually need to include the whole BGL specification for airport data in there. It isn't relevant to any applications of MakeRunways.exe I am aware of.

This is starting to go too far. MakeRunways is a little freeware program which has grown like topsy. I don't mind doing the odd improvement where it helps, but I'm not going long ways down obscure pathways. However, thanks for your input. I may add some more translations for the XML output, next time I have other reasons to change the program. Okay? Let's leave it there, please.

Regards

Pete

[FlyingAxx]

And, BTW, who would deliberately use these unknown surfaces or "grass 2" etc in any case, when there are perfectly good ones already correctly labelled / documented?

That's the question, indeed! Maybe because they are offered by AFCAD. I worked on a some airports by using AFCAD myself and at least GRASS2 and GRASS3 somehow suggested that it might look a bit different to the "standard" GRASS (it doesn't). Obviously even designers of payware (I'm thinking e.g. on "MyTraffic") used the GRASS2 surface in their MyWorldAirports collection. Meanwhile (due to the fact that I have more time on my hands as usual ) I edited the respective files and the only UNKNOWN's left are those of the type "254" which have good reasons for their existence.

However, your XML file is an excellent starting point (as it is, I think I wrote it already) and I thank you very much for your efforts.

Regards,

Axel