Calibrating Flaps with specific detentes

[l52]

Hi,

I use fsx and FSUIPC4 4.53.

I'm calibrating my Saytek Yoke +throttle quadrant +1 throttle quadrand (connect to one by usb). for total 1 Yoke and 4 throttles.

On the the throttle quadr I like calibrate flaps for PMDG 747. I have read user guide (pag 52) but I don't understand why the total detentes are 7 for PMDG747 but when I finished to do all the steps, when I return in the cockpit and set the flaps, I cannot set the flap at 25° position, but it goes from 20° directly to full flaps!?

Can you help me?

thanks (sorry for my english)

[Pete Dowson]

... I don't understand why the total detentes are 7 for PMDG747 but when I finished to do all the steps, when I return in the cockpit and set the flaps, I cannot set the flap at 25° position, but it goes from 20° directly to full flaps!? Can you help me?

It sounds like the calibration isn't right. Maybe you've not left enough room for one of the positions. Can you show me the [JoystickCalibrations] part(s) of your FSUIPC4.INI file, please? (It is in the FSX Modules folder).

Pete

[l52]

Hi,

in attach this my FSUIPC4.ini file..

You can check if I set correctcly the four Throttle Axis ..

then and I ask you if you help me to set the flaps (eg. for PMDG747) as user guide in pag52?!? :oops:

...

and where can I set "Delay" parameter in the trhottle axis because I use the "slope" to make the four axis respond in same way...is it correct? ...infact I am wasting a lot of time to set in corrected way the times of reaction of the four axis of the throttle..

when I'm in the cockpit of PMDG747, I see the 3 and 4 throttle axis react in different way than the others two .... is the "SLOPE" the right parameter for this problem?...or not?

thanks

LAST THINGS:

GF-TQ6 Throttle Quadrant is it programmable by FSUIPC (FSX and FS9) ?

:wink:

Lucio

FSUIPC4.rar

[Pete Dowson]

in attach this my FSUIPC4.ini file..

It would have been much easier for me if you'd simply paste the relevant part, as I asked, into your message. What's a "RAR" type file, what looks at it?

then and I ask you if you help me to set the flaps (eg. for PMDG747) as user guide in pag52?!? :oops:

I doubt that I can explain better and without pictures than I've done there. It would amount to reproducing part of the manual here. I don't see the point in that. If i could have explained it better I would have done.

What exact parts don't you understand? Do you need someone to translate it for you, perhaps?

.and where can I set "Delay" parameter in the trhottle axis because I use the "slope" to make the four axis respond in same way...is it correct? ...infact I am wasting a lot of time to set in corrected way the times of reaction of the four axis of the throttle..

Sorry, I really don't think you want to mess with a delay, unless you are out to make your aircraft difficult to fly, as some sort of test. Maybe with poor models, yes, but I'm sure PMDG have got their response correct. Adding a delay in the controls would be foolish.

when I'm in the cockpit of PMDG747, I see the 3 and 4 throttle axis react in different way than the others two .... is the "SLOPE" the right parameter for this problem?...or not?

Not for throttles. The slope allows you to change the sensitivity of things like airleron and elevator, near the centre, to avoid overcontrol. Really throttles should be linear.

If you have wildly different devices for your throttles 1+2 to 3+4 then you will never match them fully, though prior calibration correctly in Windows , and then more precisely in FSUIPC, will help a lot. In real aircraft the throttles are rarely exactly in line for the same thrust.

Regards

Pete

[l52]

what do you think about GF-TQ6 Throttle Quadrant ...is it programmable by FSUIPC (FSX and FS9) ?

Thsi is my FSUIPC.ini part of interest:

[JoyNames]

AutoAssignLetters=No

0=Saitek Pro Flight Yoke

1=Saitek Pro Flight Throttle Quadrant

[buttons]

ButtonRepeat=20,10

1=R0,22,K113,8

2=U0,22,K112,8

3=R1,6,K113,8

4=U1,6,K112,8

5=R0,0,K190,8

[AutoSave]

AutoSaveEnabled=No

[GPSout]

GPSoutEnabled=No

[GPSout2]

GPSoutEnabled=No

[WideServer]

WideFSenabled=Yes

[Profile.PMDG747]

1=PMDG - 747-400 GE CF6 Engines

[Axes.PMDG747]

0=0X,256,F,65763,65764,0,0

1=0Y,256,F,65762,0,0,0

2=0Z,256

3=0Z,U,2816,16383,66079,0

4=0Z,D,-16384,-260,66080,0

5=0U,256,F,66420,0,0,0

6=0V,256,F,66423,0,0,0

7=1X,256,F,66426,0,0,0

8=1Y,256,F,66429,0,0,0

9=1Z,256,F,66534,0,0,0

[JoystickCalibration.PMDG747]

AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes

ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes

ExcludeMixtureSet=Yes

ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes

SepRevsJetsOnly=No

ApplyHeloTrim=No

FlapsSetControl=0

FlapDetents=No

ReverserControl=66292

Reverser1Control=66422

Reverser2Control=66425

Reverser3Control=66428

Reverser4Control=66431

MaxThrottleForReverser=256

AileronTrimControl=66731

RudderTrimControl=66732

CowlFlaps1Control=66162

CowlFlaps2Control=66163

CowlFlaps3Control=66164

CowlFlaps4Control=66165

SteeringTillerControl=0

MaxSteerSpeed=60

Aileron=-16380,0,512,10000/8

Elevator=-16380,0,512,16380/8

Rudder=-16380,0,512,16380/8

Throttle1=-13522,0,512,16383/40

Throttle2=-13522,0,512,16383/40

Throttle3=0,0,512,16383/40

Throttle4=0,0,512,16383/40

FlapStarts=-16384,1,16381,16379

FlapEnds=14448,16380,16378,16384

Flaps=0,16380

thanks

[Pete Dowson]

what do you think about GF-TQ6 Throttle Quadrant ...is it programmable by FSUIPC (FSX and FS9) ?

Yes, it is just a set of axes, with, I seem to recall, a button operated by pulling the levers full back.

I notice from your Axis assignments that you are assigning all of your axes in FSUIPC, but directing them all via FS controls. This is fine, but for all normal axes you would actually find it more efficient to direct them to FSUIPC calibration, bypassing FS. That is, unless this method doesn't work with your aircraft (some aircraft insist on seeing the normal FS controls).

[JoystickCalibration.PMDG747]

...

Aileron=-16380,0,512,10000/8

Elevator=-16380,0,512,16380/8

Rudder=-16380,0,512,16380/8

Throttle1=-13522,0,512,16383/40

Throttle2=-13522,0,512,16383/40

Throttle3=0,0,512,16383/40

Throttle4=0,0,512,16383/40

These look like aborted attempts at calibration. With minor exceptions they are just the default values, not allowing any variation, and hardly likely to be applicable to any particular hardware.

Really, I would advise you to deal with calibration of all of the controls, properly, following the numbered steps as in the user guide. Do this for the flaps as well as all the other axes. Until you get these right, and know what you are doing, I'd really advise you to stay well away from slightly more ambitious efforts like flap detentes.

If you leave the values as shown above you might as well not be using FSUIPC, as it isn't doing you many favours.

Anyway, looking at the flaps parts:

...

FlapDetents=No

...

FlapStarts=-16384,1,16381,16379

FlapEnds=14448,16380,16378,16384

Flaps=0,16380

Several things wrong here. You've once evidently tried to calibrate flap detentes -- but only 4 positions. You set the ranges

Flaps position 0 (up) = -16384 to 14448 (i.e. most of your range!!

Flaps position 1 = 1 to 16380 (huh? Overlaps like crazy with flaps 0, and pretty much reaches your max position

Flaps position 2 = 16381 to 16387 (pretty much non-existent!

Flaps position 3 (full down) = 16379-16384 (okay)

I don't know how you got into such a mess, but you evidently didn't follow the instructions? Best to delete all those lines and start again. If you don't understand an instruction, by all means ask.

In any case, it looks like you then clicked the button to turn off the detente operation (the FlapDetents=No)

The Flaps=0,16380 line seems to indicates you have not calibrated the flaps axis first, in any case.

Please 1) calibrate the flaps axis as a normal axis, first.

2) Then select the Detentes option, and ensure that the first and last values are sowing correctly, the minimum and maximum values as in the calibration.

3) Then calibrate each flap position in turn, following the instructions, providing lower and upper values for each position (they must always have a range, not a point, in which to be recognised), until you have all 7, including 0 (full up) and 7 (full down).

Here's an example from a 737 (9 detentes including #0 up and #8 down:

FlapDetents=Yes

FlapStarts=-16384,-12873,-10532,-5201,-910,4352,8832,11904,16382

FlapEnds=-16384,-11572,-8842,-3121,-520,4992,10752,13312,16384

Flaps=-16384,16383

Regards

Pete

[l52]

thanks...for your help!

bye

Lucio

[l52]

Excuse me Pete, :?

when I calibrate the flaps axis for PMDG747.

I follow the instructions.. in particular at pag 53 I read:

"Note that flap numbers can only be increased until the TOTAL number of flaps détentes recorded is the same as the number for the currently loaded aircraft (as shown in the Joysticks section below the flaps calibration section). So, for a 737, the headings end up as #0, #7, #8 (for a total of 9 positions 0–8)."

my question is: why when I try to calibrate the flaps axis for PMDG747 I have 7 détentes but the spin can only be increased until 5 as TOTAL number of flaps ....

for this, I cannot set the last but one (flap 25)... the others yes :?:

thanks

Lucio

[Pete Dowson]

my question is: why when I try to calibrate the flaps axis for PMDG747 I have 7 détentes but the spin can only be increased until 5 as TOTAL number of flaps ....

Because the spin control is used to set the pairs of numbers relating to the intermediate flap positions, of which there are 5, numbered #1 to #5. Number #0 is the "flaps up" position, or minimum, and #6 is the flaps down position or maximum. The min and max positions are denoted under their headings, #0 and #6, on the left and right -- those are the normal calibration min and max values which you would have set during normal non-detente calibration.

This should be obvious also from the example in the document section you just quoted. Look:

"So, for a 737, the headings end up as #0, #7, #8 (for a total of 9 positions 0–8)."

See the #0 on left, the #7 (max for 9 positions) centre and #8 (full flaps) on the right.

When counting from 0 the maximum flap number will be one less than the number of positions -- i.e. 6 in your case, not 7. So the final figures above the numbers will be 0, 5 and 6.

Regards

Pete

[Turbine777]

Hello all,

I just wanted to add my experience here. I also have been trying all night to get my Flaps set on my PMDG 747(FSX). I have done everything correctly I believe yet for the life of me could not get my Saitek Throttle Quardrant to work correctly using the Detent option. I did however get it working but I did so via the Axis Assignment page, setting up each "From & To" under the "Set up to 10 Ranges for action" section. Only issue there was I then had my flaps working in reverse so only entered the Joystick Calibration tab to check the "Reverse" box and correct it. This was my first work with the FSUIPC and I think I should have picked an easier project other than Flaps to play with as I think I may have blown a gasket haha. I am an old timer FS guy who hasn't been around this scene since Epic cards were the cats meow and really have dove into relearning all these addons and of course what makes it all so great "The FSUIPC.dll". I have covered the manual and Tutorial tonight by John Cook, and think I need to just walk away for a few and clear my head. But if I may, I would like to ask a couple of questions.

1.) Pete, you stated above for Step #2 to "ensure that the first and last values are showing correctly, the minimum and maximum values as in the calibration."

Each time went into the Joystick Calibration page my numbers were always different from what I had in the Axis Assignments page. The numbers kept going back to 0 & 16384. Are they suppose to stay the same?

2.) Ok this one is dumb but, when you say, "Calibrate the flaps axis as a normal axis, first." You are refering to the Axis Assignment page aren't you? Or FSX/Windows calibration?

3.) Why use the detent option if the same flexibility is on the Axis Assignment page?

Once again, I did get mine working as I said above but can't help but feel I didn't do something correctly, and more confused at why using the detent option I could never get Flaps 25 to work as the above posters. Here is what I was doing, perhaps I misread the manual and advice on this page.

Axis Assignment = After rescanning my flap lever to identify it, I chose "Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration"

I checked a blank box and chose Flaps from the drop down.

I set up 7/10 "From and to" ranges for action also on the Axis page.

Upon going to the Joystick Calibration page I would check the boxed under left and right set and they would appear as "0 & 16384" I reset them of course.

Clicked DT and as I did on the Axis page went through the 5 detents and set them accordingly.

=========================================================

Final result was jumping from Flaps 20 to 30 and missing 25 completely. I don't see replies from all those that had the issue and not sure if they cleared it up or what the solution was (if different than the instructions posted here).

Once again, I may just need a break for the night. I just got PFE which in itself is a little bizzar and complicated jumping right into, and then deciding to take on this project may have been more than I could bare for the evening :lol:

Nice to see your still at it Pete, I've been a fan for may years. Keep up the great work!

Dan Prunier

[Pete Dowson]

I also have been trying all night to get my Flaps set on my PMDG 747(FSX). I have done everything correctly I believe yet for the life of me could not get my Saitek Throttle Quardrant to work correctly using the Detent option. I did however get it working but I did so via the Axis Assignment page, setting up each "From & To" under the "Set up to 10 Ranges for action" section. Only issue there was I then had my flaps working in reverse so only entered the Joystick Calibration tab to check the "Reverse" box and correct it.

Maybe that was your problem in the first place? You really do need to clabrate your flaps as a notrmal non-detented axis, and check that it works okay, and in the right direction, before then switching on the detente facility.

I'm amazed that you found the much more complex process of using the axis ranges option easier than using the purpose-made detente option, which is really doing the same sort of thing but much more efficiently and easily.

1.) Pete, you stated above for Step #2 to "ensure that the first and last values are showing correctly, the minimum and maximum values as in the calibration."

Each time went into the Joystick Calibration page my numbers were always different from what I had in the Axis Assignments page. The numbers kept going back to 0 & 16384. Are they suppose to stay the same?

Sorry, what numbers where "kept going back to 0 & 16384"?

2.) Ok this one is dumb but, when you say, "Calibrate the flaps axis as a normal axis, first." You are refering to the Axis Assignment page aren't you? Or FSX/Windows calibration?

Neither. FSUIPC calibration. There is NO calibration possible in the axis assignments. Calibration is the function carried out in the Joysticks tab, and explained at length, with numbered steps to follow, in the documentation for that section. It is the palce where you set MIN, CENTRE and MAX values, according to their types. That's what calibration means - making the numbers coming from your assigned axes match what is needed in FS.

There is NO calibration facility in the Axis Assignments tab -- that is only about assignments, and there are NO calibration facilities in FS, only assignments again.

As for Windows calibration -- yes, of course, you should always calibrate your devices there first and foremost. But that is part of the act of installing a device, and is nothing at all to do with either FS or FSUIPC. If your device is acting incorrectly because its driver is doing the wrong thing there's nothing in the world which can be fixed for it afterwards.

Note that FSUIPC's calibration facilities are entirely independent of how and where you assign your controls. You can assign in FS and still calibrate in FSUIPC. The axis assignments facility in FSUIPC was a new feature added much more recently and primarily aimed at cockpit builders with more complex and advanced ideas.

3.) Why use the detent option if the same flexibility is on the Axis Assignment page?

It is not the same facility and it is much more complex, at least for everyone else if not yourself. You are presumable not even now using the axis as a Flaps Axis, but as a set of discrete bittns, each sending a specific event. That is not how the detente systems works at all -- that actually computes and sends the correct axis values instead.

The facility to assign controls or other events to ranges along an axis actually can act at the same time as an axis input to FS, calibrated with or without detentes, centres or null zones. The main use for this has mostly been for Airbuses where the "throttle" also sets different flight modes.

Once again, I did get mine working as I said above but can't help but feel I didn't do something correctly, and more confused at why using the detent option I could never get Flaps 25 to work as the above posters.

I'm sure the others got it right subsequently. Folks rarely come back and post about things that work, so you don't see that confirmation. If you read the reports above and my replies more carefully you will see they were reading things incorrectly in a couple of places. One only calibrated three of four detentes in any case, for a 737 or whatever, and the other missed the obvious thing that the flap numbers were counting from 0 -- on a 9-position lever, positions #0 and #8 are already set by your normal calibration, they are the extremes ("flaps up" and "full flaps"). So you only ever calibrate detentes for the central 7.

Here is what I was doing, perhaps I misread the manual and advice on this page.

Axis Assignment = After rescanning my flap lever to identify it, I chose "Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration"

I checked a blank box and chose Flaps from the drop down.

Okay. That's one way. You could also have assigned in FS, or assigned where you did by the default method, via FS, in which case the control you assigned to would have been "Axis flaps set". But the way you chose is the most efficient.

I set up 7/10 "From and to" ranges for action also on the Axis page.

Ouch. Why? All you do on the axis assignments page is assign the axis. The right-hand side is for doing all sorts of special things that cockpit builders like to do. What in my documentation led you to even start fiddling about over there? I just don't get it! :-(

Upon going to the Joystick Calibration page I would check the boxed under left and right set and they would appear as "0 & 16384" I reset them of course.

No. the first thing to do in the calibrations tab is to press the "Set" button top left in that section, so that it changes to "Reset". Then you are in calibration mode. If it does not say "Reset" you are not calibrating in FSUIPC!

Then you calibrate, following the numbered steps in the documentation. That is what they are for, for you to follow. You need to do that, and check the results, BEFORE moving on to set the detentes. If you try to set detentes on an uncalibrated axis it will never be right.

You would also have found, that way, that you needed to check the REV option pretty soon!

Please please do try using the documentation and following the step-by-step approach. I really don't understand why folks continue to ignore most of the tings I write. :-(

Regards

Pete

[Turbine777]

Hey Pete,

Thanks for the reply and the time that it took for you to do so.

I will get back to you after I make time for to try this all again but wanted to say a couple things. I am very sorry that it appears to you that I did not read your manual and that I may not have understood things the way I suppose they were meant to be understood. I can say that I spent 4 years as a technical writer (of course not my main job, but an added responcibility to my daily regime). The manuals that I wrote were as dumbed down as I could possibly write them, yet I still would get calls for things covered on page 1 of a 3 page spread. There were times it was annoying and there were times I told my bosses that they were wasting their money and my time doing these documents because it only seemed to make things worse. However, as I said above, I just needed a break most likely and things were starting to read into the other. I am more computer literate than the average joe with several certifications under my belt but unfortunately, have never used FSUIPC until the last couple days and have honestly gotten lost fairly often when trying to understand some things. I got questions that were as common sense to me as breathing air, but I never insulted the client I was dealing with, nor took it as personal as you seem to be. I am also a scuba diving instructor(summer/fall), a pilot and a highly decorated Veteran. Oh yes, my main job is as a Plumber. I'd like to think I am not an idiot, although you may disagree. I am not trying to be disrespectful when I say I could write a manual about the setting up of a high pressure steam system, or as basic as changing a thermo coupling but I am pretty certain what you read and how you read it could easily be an eye rolling, sighing moment for me, since in my mind it is right there in black and white. After all, it's what I know.

So sorry again for "APPEARING" to not have read your manual,,, the one I read multiple times and looks like I will several more. And for the record, I lived on this page for 2 hours last night before submitting my comment. It is sad others don't return to post their thanks for help and which part ended up being a fix for their situation. After all, it is (in my opinion) suppose to be a knowledge base, is it not? Everyone has their own reasons for not understanding something, and people don't like to feel dumb as it is for having to ask for assistance, especially when they are insulted for doing so after they finally decide to. I think I'll put it on the shelf for now and get to it when I have more uniteruptable time. I have 2 kids and my house is pretty busy until my bed time. My time for me is a rare comodity, and I need to make it where ever I can. Matter of fact last night I posted my comment 4 hrs before having to get up for work this morning, so as you can see, I just need to reread it a few more times and am possibly making it harder than it is (I have been known to do so). I bought FSUIPC & Widefs the other day and think I picked the wrong time to learn them. I don't have the time to qoute everything you said the way I'd like to for easier reading, but think you'l know what answer goes to what here.

"Ouch, why" - As I stated, I could not get it to work the other way. I see that it is a different way, and not intended for the way I used it (I understand now), but as far as complex? Haha, I see 0 difference in the detent method (as far as complexity) and the best part, I now have flaps 25 working. The reason I set 7/10, was because I at least figured by doing it this way and not using the detent method I would have to make my own 0 and 6 setting.

Of course it was a last resort as nothing else was working for me, I did exactly as you described in the manual and have 0 issues as the other poster in my ini and still will not get flaps 25, again, I will give it a few more valiant efforts when more time permits.

No need to explain windows calibration :) I do know what that is, thanks haha. I think the problem here was thinking (or read it as) something I should have done right there and then before proceeding. I did do that step probably two hours before getting to my flaps however (Followed the manual).

I'll be back and let you know how things go and what I find I missed or what I don't understand next. Please understand once again, I do not mean any disrespect, merely understand the frustration of questions after you've taken the time and needed steps to detail things. Just don't take it as people ignoring what you write, some of us may simpy read things differently is all. In my case, I often make things harder than they are and but don't think so in this case. Of course since I said that I am sure I will mutter the word "Doh" soon enough.

Thanks,

~Dan

[Pete Dowson]

I'll be back and let you know how things go and what I find I missed or what I don't understand next. Please understand once again, I do not mean any disrespect, merely understand the frustration of questions after you've taken the time and needed steps to detail things. Just don't take it as people ignoring what you write, some of us may simpy read things differently is all. In my case, I often make things harder than they are and but don't think so in this case. Of course since I said that I am sure I will mutter the word "Doh" soon enough.

Okay. Sorry if my reply came across as harsh to you. It wasn't intended. When I express surprise it is genuine. I admit I'm not a good tutor and I certainly haven't got the requisite patience to be one. I have tried my best to provide good, definitive documentation, and it has been gradually improved over the years, mostly through feedback. FSUIPC is, after all, over ten years old now and I've had a lot of it (feedback, that is). I still get surprised, though, at some of the unique ways folk find to misunderstand things. I really don't know how to cover it all so that nothing is ever misunderstood -- how can I if I don't understand how it can be, at least in the ways it is?

Regards

Pete

[Turbine777]

Hello again Pete,

Very sorry for the late reply, I haven't had much of a chance to fly, let alone play around with my levers. I got side tracked writing requested tutorials and paints... By the way, do you drink "Guinness"? Haha, I need to get my FSX rig to my workplace :D

I tried a few more times with getting the detents to work and could not. I still couldn't get it from jumping from Flaps 20 to 30. I started from scratch and skipped the detent options and I now have full range of motion for my flap lever. I'm not sure why I couldn't before. I will return to troubleshoot this when time permits, but right now just like the fact that it's working :)

Have a very merry christmas and happy new year!

~Dan