I bought FSUIPC--doesn't fix what I'd hoped. How about . .

[Noel]

considering adding a feature that me and maybe others might find useful?

I, for one, don't like having the ATC window show up in the center of my screen. So I resize it every time, and move it up to the right corner of my display. So what about a bit of code, accessible through the Technical tab, that allows you to check a box that says . . .

"Check to fix last ATC window size & position" I would also love to see the option of changing the font size and perhaps type in the ATC window as well.

Please do consider this Peter.

Even though FSUIPC DOES NOT help nearly like it did with FS2002 as far as controlling visibility, I would at least feel like my contribution to Pete (and I have been a supporter of this payware move) would not be in vain.

Do you have any idea if the low lying haze layer CAN POSSIBLY be fixed by you? It really looks ugly to fly over low haze with mountains popping up through the overly uniform, glasslike shiney surface. Yuck!

Noel

[Pete Dowson]

I, for one, don't like having the ATC window show up in the center of my screen. So I resize it every time, and move it up to the right corner of my display.

You can undock it too, move it onto a second monitor if you have one.

Doesn't it remember the state of the ATC window if you save a Flight? I've not tried ithang on, I will now:

... Yes! If you re-size and move the ATC window, then save a Flight, next time you reload that flight, even in a different session, the ATC window comes back in its new position and size. In other words it acts just like any other FS window. If you want it that way by default, tell FS that the flight is the default when you save it.

"Check to fix last ATC window size & position" I would also love to see the option of changing the font size and perhaps type in the ATC window as well.

Well, the first part isn't needed as I've just shown. The second is near impossible as far as I can determine. The whole thing is not a "normal" window, as least when it is docked. I think it is all done by DirectX stuff, which is a tale of mystery and horror for me! :?

I did spend quite some time in FS2002 trying to work out ways of trapping and diverting the ATC text (as I did with Adventures in AdvDisplay), but I failed miserably. I wanted to be able to move it all to another PC altogether (via WideFS and ShowText), as well as provide the opportunity for other applications to read the commands and be able to issue responses. I may have another look at this one day, but I got nowhere in amny many hours last time so I'm not hopeful I'm afraid.

Even though FSUIPC DOES NOT help nearly like it did with FS2002 as far as controlling visibility

Really? aren't you using Version 3.05 then? The visibility facilities now for FS2004, in version 3.05, actually exceed the provisions in FS2002, quite substantially. You have the limits, the smoothing and the graduation all operating now much better and more consistently than in FS2002, and looking superb too. Please try them. Why do you think they are inadequate? :cry:

Do you have any idea if the low lying haze layer CAN POSSIBLY be fixed by you? It really looks ugly to fly over low haze with mountains popping up through the overly uniform, glasslike shiney surface. Yuck!

It doesn't need fixing by me! What you are seeing is the drawing limit. Go to Options-Settings-Display-Weather and make sure you have all three of the top sliders fully right. The effects are FAR superior then! If this knocks your frame rate too much, apply the FSUIPC visibility limits and graduations to bring back the normal good-looking haxe to compensate.

I find FS2004 has fixed just about all the complaints regarding dire visibility effects in FS2002. In FS2002 the whole visibility thing was a terrible step back from FS2000! FS2004 is better than FS2000 in this regard and I cannot think of a higher praise! :D

Regards,

Pete

[in_04]

Hi Pete,

sorry for jump in this thread, but I guess he means this problem

http://www.artpatscheck.com/screenies/fs2k4shot05.jpg

Bye

Markus

[Pete Dowson]

sorry for jump in this thread, but I guess he means this problem

http://www.artpatscheck.com/screenies/fs2k4shot05.jpg

What is that? I don't see that here? I assume that's the edge of the visibility 'cloak' below you, drawn as far as the limit in the Display options or somewhere else?

I still think the visisiblity effects in FS2004 are far, far superior to those in FS2002, which was awful in that regard. FS2000 wasn't bad, but the additional weather visuals in FS2004 make it much better.

Regards,

Pete

[in_04]

Hi Pete,

thats a screenshot of the ground visibility layer with visibility set to less than 10 miles.

The screenshot was made before the new 3.05 version of FSUIPC was released, so I didn't checked if the haze layer still looks so.

Bye

Markus

[Pete Dowson]

thats a screenshot of the ground visibility layer with visibility set to less than 10 miles. The screenshot was made before the new 3.05 version of FSUIPC was released, so I didn't checked if the haze layer still looks so.

I don't think it will look like that if you set graduated visibility.

What I think you are seeing is not the haze layer itself, but the graphic for a thin layer of cloud graphic deliberately placed at the top of the visibility layer by FS in order to answer very severe criticism of the way the ground was too sharp below when climbing out of the haze. I think this cloud graphic stops after a certain distance for the same reason cloud graphics do, and the main answer is to make sure the slider for cloud graphics is full right, in the Options-Settings-Display-Weather dialogue.

I cannot fix or change graphics in FSUIPC, I don't know how to. If you don't want the visibility limiting at all when above the visibility layer, then this sort of view would have to be 'fixed' by adjusting FS's graphics settings. But I recommend you try FSUIPP 3.05 vis facilities, see what you think.

Regards,

Pete

[Banquet]

I'm still seeing that with 3.05. I'm not sure it's within the realms of FSUIPC to fix though (although I wish it was!)

A layer of vis has a sharp edge and anything above the layer like a mountain completely contrasts with what's below.. to my mind it looks silly.

Worse it when you break through the layer yourself.. you can go from sunny blue sky's above the layer down into low vis which in the current version of FS seems to not just reduce the sight distance, but grey everything out too.

If you fly in 5 miles vis you can't even see a blue sky.. the effect is akin to flying in overcast.. and in real life in 5 miles vis it still looks blue and sunny.. u just can't see far.

In FS2002 I loved flying over VFR scenery for England with 10 miles vis.. it looked just right for SE England.. but set that in FS9 and you're flying in permanent grey.

This happens so often.. take off in grey drab.. get to the height of the vis layer and bang! blue skies.. just like that! (as tommy cooper would say)

I haven't found the graduated vis in fsuipc helps this at all.. I always imagined the grad vis function was for when a new metar came in with lower vis, and this was handled gradually, which fsuipc handles well.

I think it's more a problem of the weather system in fs9.. but if Pete can do anything about it, or even agrees it's a problem is another matter.

John.

[Pete Dowson]

A layer of vis has a sharp edge and anything above the layer like a mountain completely contrasts with what's below.. to my mind it looks silly.

Ah, that's not quite the same thing as I though was being stated. So it isn't the EDGE of the drawing of the visibility layer, it's the level at which it is drawn? Naturally, if the layer ends at 3000' and there are mountains or hills sticking out above this, they won't be subject to the haze/fog.

Isn't that realistic? Low lying haze or fog often stops abruptly at a specific altitude.

Worse it when you break through the layer yourself.. you can go from sunny blue sky's above the layer down into low vis which in the current version of FS seems to not just reduce the sight distance, but grey everything out too.

It greys things out if it is a low visibility, yes, of course. That's what heppens in the real world too. All that you say sounds more realistic to me, not less.

You can use the FSUIPC graduated visibility to make the change in visibility gradual. That's what it is for.

If you fly in 5 miles vis you can't even see a blue sky.. the effect is akin to flying in overcast.

Yes, there's a similar cut-off in FS2004 as there was in FS2002 - in FS2002 it was somewhere between 4 and 5 miles. Did you never notice?But in FS2002 when it was greater than 5 miles you ALWAYS got a blue horizon, no matter how overcast the sky. Awful. I do really think FS2004 is much better.

In FS2002 I loved flying over VFR scenery for England with 10 miles vis.. it looked just right for SE England.. but set that in FS9 and you're flying in permanent grey.

10 miles visibility is low -- I think it looks about right in FS2004 and wrong in FS2002. It sounds like you'd prefer 20 or 30 miles. Strange how opinions can differ so much? In my view the very WORST thing about FS2002 was the visibility implementation. I thought it truly awful, much worse in fact than FS2000. The changes in FS2004 rectify all that, IMHO.

This happens so often.. take off in grey drab.. get to the height of the vis layer and bang! blue skies.. just like that! (as tommy cooper would say)

Well, that does actually happen in reality too. The thing that was wrong in FS2002 was that when that happened and you looked down, the ground was perfectly sharp and clear too -- the haze just vanished. That's wrong. FS2004 draws the haze below you now, which is much better.

Anyway, if you don't like the sudden transition just use FSUIPC's graduated visibility.

I haven't found the graduated vis in fsuipc helps this at all.. I always imagined the grad vis function was for when a new metar came in with lower vis, and this was handled gradually, which fsuipc handles well.

No! That is NOT "graduated visibility" -- that is the visibility smoothing option. You are evidently using the wrong facilities, or at least not enough of them! :) Enable the graduated visibility option, which is on the same page as the smoothing, but is a different check box.

These facilities are very similar to those in FS2002's FSUIPC, but they are not defaulted on as they were in FS2002. That's probably what is confusing you.

Regards,

Pete

[Banquet]

Pete,

I understand your point. To me the issue is not the level at which the visibility is drawn. It has to end somewhere.. it's the fact that it's so abrupt.

There's a screenshot here http://www.deep-puddle.com/toppage11.htm I just posted that shows this to some extent (but I seen it more pronouced with several 'peaks' rising above the layer) but I'm sure you're familiar with what we're discussing.

With regard to FS2002 having a cut off point where low vis would turn grey.. I hadn't realised.. I only really played around with it down to 5 imles.

We may have to agree to disagree on the issue of low visibility greying everything out. I don't have vast experience in real flying but when I got my ppl one of the things that struck me early in learning to fly was how nice and sunny a summer day could look.. but when you actually got in the air, even in CAVOK, there might only be 6-7 miles vis and it was really hazy in the air.. this was never apparent from the ground and certainly didn't turn the sky grey. So maybe I should say the actual vis isn't a problem.. it's the blue sky. (or lack of)

I've played around with FSUIPC and found that 20-30 miles vis is the lowest I can set it without greying everything out too much.. I emphasive however that I understand this is a MS thing and nothing to do with FSUIPC which is great at all it does.

Thank you for your last para.. I am going to experiment with this now as I obviously hadn't realised that either.. infact 'hadn't realised' should probably be my middle name. I am obviously using the wrong facilities, probably because my mental facilities are giving up the ghost :lol:

Thanks for your response.

[s.storm]

John,

I agree with you regarding the visibility problems(sharp edge horizon) in FS9. I think that Pete solved some of the problems with version 3.05 but I really miss the fs2002 visibility. No matter what settings I try, I still get a distinct unreal line at the horizon, unless I put fs9 or FSUIPC to 30 miles or below in the daytime. At dusk and dawn even these settings are bypassed by fs9. Sometimes I do get what has been called "the white wall", which leads me to believe that it could be some kind of "fs9 random weather generator" (PS: I always have my weather set to no change/non-dynamic) built into fs9 and/or my graphics card/driver(128Mb Geforce4 Ti4600 with the latest drivers).

If, Pete could tell us what settings(all the details for :options/display/weather,FSUIPC and world weather etc) he has on his system, and that he is pleased with, those of us with "problems" can compare the same settings on our computers. We can then E-mail screen shots between us and compare etc.

There are several others at other forums that report the same thing and some include screen shots. Good luck.

Stefan

[Banquet]

Thanks for replying Stefan,

I've just been experimenting with FS9.. it does indeed turn the sky grey at 10 miles vis or less.

Pete's vis smoothing does work.. but it can't smooth the sky colour so that just zaps from blue to grey (or vice versa) when you hit the layer (assuming the ground layer is less than 10 miles)

I do find this effect unrealistic.

I have to say I agree with Pete in that FS9's weather, including vis is far superior to FS2002.. but I think this in itself has led to some of these problems.. It's better, but now trying to do things that are maybe still beyond it's capabilities to do in a visually realistic manner.

I just flew above Biggin Hill with a ground layer of 10 miles vis up to 1000ft.. from above the layer I liked the effect and agree with Pete in that it's a real layer. rather than simply a global change which is what I think FS2002 did.. this is a major improvement.. however I think the layer is too sharp and too visible when you see the edges (if it were ground fog then fair enough) but I don't think it is.. I think it's just a layer of vis

More than anything I don't like the gray sky for under 10 miles vis but I can't see that anything can be done to solve it.

Anyway, as has been pointed out FS2002 had this 'white wall effect' too, it was just at 4 miles.. that, to my mind, is more reasonable.

Thank god (or Pete, more precisely) that we at least have FSUIPC to smooth out some of these issues.

[Pete Dowson]

No matter what settings I try, I still get a distinct unreal line at the horizon, unless I put fs9 or FSUIPC to 30 miles or below in the daytime.

Unreal line? I don't see that. Have you got the top slider in the Options-Settings-Display-Weather dialogie fully to the right? The only ugly horizon thing I have seen was fixed by that. I now have all three of those top sliders fully right and I think the clouds are then far superior. The bottom (4th) slider I've put far left, it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference for me in any case.

I always have my weather set to no change/non-dynamic

I think FS2004 still messes a bit with the weather. I've been doing some experiments with that recently -- see the item on "global weather" in the "IMPORTANT" announcement, top of the forum.

If, Pete could tell us what settings(all the details for :options/display/weather,FSUIPC and world weather etc) he has on his system, and that he is pleased with

Well, I keep messing about in any case -- for tests, experiments and so on. But I normally have my visibility settings (maxima, smoothing and graduation) enabled and set to default, and the sliders in the Options-Settings-Display-Weather dialogue set as mentioned above (top three full right, bottom one full left). In the other display settings I have most things maxed out. This gives me rather lowish frame rates (12-20), so I set the limiter at 20. I am using a P4 2.4GHz with a Parhelia video card running at 2400 x 600 (across 3 screens) -- no panel, only the outside view. I can run it at 3840 x 1024 but the frame rate hit is too much at present. I plan to upgrade to a 3.2GHz soon :D

Regards,

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

I understand your point. To me the issue is not the level at which the visibility is drawn. It has to end somewhere.. it's the fact that it's so abrupt.

There's a screenshot here http://www.deep-puddle.com/toppage11.htm I just posted that shows this to some extent (but I seen it more pronouced with several 'peaks' rising above the layer) but I'm sure you're familiar with what we're discussing.

Yes. I can't fix that -- but depending where you are getting the weather, you can. Just raise the top of the visibility layer about the ground level of those hills. If you use an external weather program, FSUIPC can adjust it for you -- there's a value there, bottom left I think.

We may have to agree to disagree on the issue of low visibility greying everything out. I don't have vast experience in real flying but when I got my ppl one of the things that struck me early in learning to fly was how nice and sunny a summer day could look.. but when you actually got in the air, even in CAVOK, there might only be 6-7 miles vis and it was really hazy in the air.

Well when I was allowed to fly (my eyes prevent that now, I'm not even allowed to drive!) I don't think I ever flew in any visibility that low. That would look like fog, indeed. I could always see a good 10-20 miles from altitudes like 1500-5000 feet. On some days I could see clear to the Irish see off Liverpool, from a few thousand feet over Sleap. "CAVOK" has to have a visibility of 10 miles or better in any case.

Sometimes there's a definitely thin haze layer in the air. There's often a big contrast between visibility above and below it. I'm not sure of the meteorological explanation now, something to do with temperatures and pressures.

I've played around with FSUIPC and found that 20-30 miles vis is the lowest I can set it without greying everything out too much.

I really think that except on really murky (esp. wet) days, 20-30 miles is quite realistic for the UK.

Regards,

Pete

[Banquet]

Pete,

Did you ever fly in South East England? 30 miles visibility was very rare if memory serves.. However it's 8 years since I last flew and I maybe overstating how low the vis was. I felt that 10 miles vis in FS2002 gave a good rendition of how I remembered the South East looking. FS9 does handle vis generally better and a higher vis setting produces good results.

Certainly it's all subjective.. in many parts of the world with a less polluted atmosphere even 30 miles might be considered low vis.

btw, CAVOK is 10km.. or 6 miles, but that's by the by.. in any case I understand this is all about opinions. Overall I'm having a blast with FS9.. a great improvement of FS2002.. and FSUIPC is fantastic.

Best wishes

John.

[Pete Dowson]

btw, CAVOK is 10km.. or 6 miles

Yes, sorry, AT LEAST 10 km. In the USA it's at least 10 miles. But that's only because they don't normally measure it further -- especially if it's an automatic station. From ground level (well tower level?) it's often not possible to have anything further away to measure by, in any case. Looking at it that way I should think that in central London you'd be lucky to have a visibility greater than 100 yards at ground level! :lol:

BTW I don't know why the South East should be so much more polluted than the Midlands? Most Southerners seem to be of the opposite opinion! :)

Regards,

Pete

[Banquet]

I remember once my old flying club organised a trip to Dublin. I do remember thinking the vis improved, especially as passed the Welsh border.. However once we got to Dublin and experienced some of the local ales, the haze definately set in.. in fact turbulence seemed to get worse too, as we all had trouble navigating a straight line :lol:

London, I think, is a micro climate of it's own.. enclosed in a dome of haze. The South East isn't THAT bad.. but I wouldn't be surprised if it's worse than the Midlands (tho I've never flown there)

Thinking about FS9 as I continue my round the world flight in a Tiger Moth (to be completed in about 8 years!) I think some of the problems are caused because, as you pointed out in another topic, FS only allows one layer of vis.. and so the transition is likely to be harsh.. it could be graduated somewhat if we had more layers to work with.

Still FS9 is a big step up.. the foundations have been laid. I just hope MS don't rest on their laurels, and continue to improve the atmospherics in FS10.

[s.storm]

Pete and others,

Thanks for your replies.

Pete, I tried your "normal" settings as well as 2 other settings and restarted FS9 20(!) times for each of the 3 settings(all at 33000 ft, game paused before restart, and un-paused after restart). Here I can clearly see your module etc at work after a restart/un-pause.

For each of the 3 settings I got 3 totally different "final" adjustments after FSUIPC and fs9 had finished modifying the visibility settings. All at random;

1. The "white wall".

2. A "almost" good hazy horizon.

3. A "terrible" non-hazy horizon.

Once again; without changing anything, except in between the 3 settings!?? There is definately "something rotten in Denmark"(expresion) here, as you mentioned under "IMPORTANT" announcements.

I also tried moving the slider from non-dynamic to dynamic weather changes, but after 10 restarts, it showed the same effects as above.

Dusk and dawn still look unreal to me. At night it does not matter since the horizon is not visible anyway.

The only tip for flight-simmers with similar problems as I encounter, is to continue restarting the game, until a good randomly selected visibility setting is noticed, and continue from there. A 30% chance is better than none.

Best of luck,

Stefan

[s.storm]

Hello again,

Sorry, I forgot to mention what I am trying to adjust with the visibility etc, that worked fine for me in fs2002;

In clear and cloudy weather(not overcast or rain), I want the ground visibility to be 20 miles and gradually increase to 60 miles at cruise altitude(35000 feet). This is most realistic for me unless I want to add fog/pollution layers. For overcast or rain ground visibility would be 10 miles. At 35000 ft, the sky and horizon/land, with 60 miles visibility set, should "smoothly" blend.

Good night from Sweden,

Stefan

[Pete Dowson]

For each of the 3 settings I got 3 totally different "final" adjustments after FSUIPC and fs9 had finished modifying the visibility settings. All at randomOnce again; without changing anything, except in between the 3 settings!?? There is definately "something rotten in Denmark"(expresion) here

I'm not sure what you are seeing, but Microsoft have programmed in variations. differing haze effects and sky colours are actually intentional. They try to re-create realistic variations, usually on a date and time basis. But it is pseudo-random. Most folks don't actually notice, but those who did, during Beta testing, very surprised and pleased!

Dusk and dawn still look unreal to me.

Oh? How odd! I really love the dusk and dawn effects in FS2004. The sky colouring, the glint on the landscape, especially water, the underside of the clouds, the haze. To me it makes FS2004 the most beautiful sim experience ever. I even have a sunset screen-shot as wallpaper on my development PC! :)

It is really strange how folks see the very same things and some love it and others hate it! Have you looked through any of the screen shots of all these effects - there was a whole gallery in the FS2004 forum, posted by Katy Pluta. Aren't your screens as good as those?

I have never yet come across any bad looking view in FS2004 -- I've seen selected bad ones folks have posted here, but with most of the settings I've got obviously they just aren't occurring. Even if they did I suspect they'd be temporary.

It was FS2002 I really hated for bad views. The visibility and stupid blue horizon, even in overcast dull weather, was really irritating. FS2000 was a lot better than that.

Regards,

Pete

[s.storm]

Pete,

I agree with you that fs9 is much better than all previous versions, in all aspects. For me it is only the actual horizon("the line") I wish could be manipulated more to create a "smoother" transition between the ground and sky. I know that it has alot to do with personal preferences and therefore wish the code that controls that parameter was more adjustable. Perhaps different computer hardware configurations also play a part in the visual effects. Your latest version of FSUIPC really helps me alot, making it more adjustable overall. I could not do without it.

Anyway, it's time for me to drop this subject and get back to enjoying some serious flying. I wish everyone a nice weekend and fly safely.

Stefan

[Noel]

Thank you folks for explaining my complaint more clearly. It is exactly this sharp delination that looks like someone poured an ice skating rink around the mountains. Very very phoney appearing. Very unnatural. It appears FSUPIC will not be able to fix this bug from MS. I have tried the various tweaks within FSUIPC and sometimes it helps the general visibility, but nostly the ice rink effect continues on. Never saw anything weird like that in FS2002, which is why much of the time, when you fly around coastal mountains, it actually looks worse than with FS2002 in terms of a believeable depiction of reality. I hope they fix that, but I doubt they will. MS's general plan is to Release 'n Run like hell til the next version . . . You never hear from the MS FS Dev Team.

I find FS2004 to be a true mix of the very awesome and the very much a step back in photorealism. Mostly it's awesome though :o).

Thanks for your replies Pete. If you want to get a peak about how this looks, fly across the coast range east of Arcata, CA. KACV. Often it shows up there, and most other coastal mountain areas.

Noel[/img]

[Pete Dowson]

It is exactly this sharp delination that looks like someone poured an ice skating rink around the mountains. Very very phoney appearing. Very unnatural.

Either raise the top of the visibility layer so that the haze layer covers the mountains too, or lower it so that it disappears (you can still get lower visibilities using FSUIPC's maxima).

If you use FS's own weather downloads you can't really change that easily, but you can get FSUIPC to set the level automatically if you are using an external weather program.

Never saw anything weird like that in FS2002

Because, as I explained, in FS2002 when you climbed out of fog or mist and everything went clear, the ground below also went clear, completely sharp, and most definitely unnatural. In most circumstances the new effect, which as I said is done by FS applying a thin cloud graphic at the top of the vis layer, is better. I agree it can look odd in some circumstances, but the only answer then is to adjust the level.

I hope they fix that, but I doubt they will.

It isn't a bug, that's why. It's the same sort of thing as the ever-present blue horizon in FS2002 -- an artefact of the way a facility is implemented.

Regards,

Pete

[Noel]

Peter, points well taken, but I still maintain it looks goofy. The main problem I has is that I do in fact use the online weather, so there's no such thing as changing visibility layers after you've gone down that road. Again, is there no way you could implement an ability to adjust visibility layers for online weather as you can with offline? Seems like it could be possible, no?

Noel

[Pete Dowson]

Again, is there no way you could implement an ability to adjust visibility layers for online weather as you can with offline? Seems like it could be possible, no?

If I could locate where the localised weather structures are I could do a lot of things, but I spent many many hours and never found them. I only ever found the global one. I think it gets very complicated anyway -- the WX station weather is the source, wherever they are, but then, as you fly, I think it is making a matrix of nearby stations and manipulating these. Trying to track them down through private pointers and so on is a real nightmare, and I failed miserably.

Maybe I'll take up the hunt again one day, but I hate such long periods being totally unproductive. It is so frustrating.

What might be easier is to download the FS9 weather (the all-at-once option, not the 15 minute updates), save a Flight, which also saves the WX completely, then have a program which processes the WX file, raising or lowering all the visibility layer tops. Then you'd have to re-load the flight and hence the manipulated weatherUgh!

Regards,

Pete

[Noel]

I am an amateur VBA programmer and I have a definite feel for the idea of spending hours with little to show for it (except of course what you have ruled out . . .). Well, I hope you can somehow figure out how to have less of a delineation--a "softer" edge if you will. If that were the case I'd be very grateful, as this, and sometimes when the bottoms of clouds contact the tops of mountains there is, again, to distinct a line. I think its a case of the cloud just being to uniformly low in density, so the sharp edge of the mountain bleeds through to much. It needs to be such that you really never see that completely sharp line. I think in the real world clouds scatter the light too much, and perhaps darken light reflected off mountains behind such that you just don't have the hard edge. Looks fake is the issue. BTW, sometimes the blurring looks very good . . .

Good luck!

Noel