Jump to content


Photo

Strange rudder problem

Rudder problem

  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 CBB

CBB

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 32 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:29 PM

Hi Pete

I fly at least once a day on Vatsim and have had a very stable-running setup for the last 4 months flying the Posky 737-900 KLM on FSX with Project Magenta and FSUIPC 4.80 in a home-built cockpit. No crashes, no issues.

I recently thought of moving to the next stage which was logically to a virtual airline, my prime concern being that I would have to use a new aircraft of the VA's fleet and the consequent risk to the stability I had worked hard to get to.

I made the plunge and recently joined Thomson VA and was pleased with how everything was going and saw that there was a Posky 737-8K5 available as part of the fleet which I downloaded (apparently just the Thomson 737-800 from the Posky site with textural chnages). I also downloaded Blue Sky which is their Pirep software, which apparently has no input to my flight sim other than send a message to my screen, they use the bridge fsuipc to communicate between blue sky and FSX. I then did a test flight of everything and all was absolutely fine until on final approach I made a poor landing and ran off to one side of the runway and could not get back (fortunately not very usual!). I discovered that my rudder was not working properly (it had worked fine on taxxing to the dep runway), so much so that I could not taxi to gate, it was all over the place (I have used flypfc pedals for some years now with no problem). I thought maybe the pedals themselves were not working, but I did a test in the windows device settings and it was fine, I even recalibrated them to be sure.

Looking into this further, I found out that within FSUIPC´s axis assignment all was well, so that when I pressed the left pedal the numbers increased and when I pressed the right they decreased and went negative. But when I went into the Joystick assignment and pressed the left pedal sometimes the numbers would go negative rather than positive and when I pressed the right pedal they would be negative again! (this is not the “reverse” button because that was off). Then I went back into axis assignment and selected to “rescan” or “clear” and nothing would happen (the assignment would not clear), I had to exit FSUIPC and go in again. Then in the axis assignment page the numbers move absolutely fine still, ie positive (when push left) and negative (when push right). I noticed too that on one of my tests, when I moved the pedals on the FSUIPC joystick calibration page the values for the Aileron Max field were changing! Then again I could not clear/rescan on the axis assignment page and had to close and re-enter FSUIPC. I put my pedals in a different USB slot but no change. These tests were occurring without Bluesky running.

I double-checked that I have no other conflicting assignments (eg within FSX) but these were all as I had before with my KLM, ie all deactivated.

I have never experienced any problem with FSUIPC before and I have used it for the last 3 years extensively. So luckily I made a restore point before all this, I loaded up my old KLM and the Thomson 737 from the Posky site (not the Thomson site) and sure enough the pedals are absolutely fine, although this may mean nothing as they were fine when I departed with the Thomson site's Posky 737.

I have raised this with Thomson VA and we agreed I´ll try flying my KLM without Bluesky, then I´ll try my KLM with Bluesky, then (the Posky Thomson Fly 737 from the Posky site with and without Bluesky and then © the Posky Thomson Fly 737 from the Thomson site with and without Bluesky. Hopefully that may give more information for us! In the meantime, can you shed any light on possible causes? I thought of static but never had this before and would be very coincidental for this to occur when I change aircraft and load Bluesky.
  • 0

#2 Pete Dowson

Pete Dowson

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 26,447 posts
  • LocationNear Stoke-on-Trent, UK

Posted 28 June 2012 - 03:20 PM

I fly at least once a day on Vatsim and have had a very stable-running setup for the last 4 months flying the Posky 737-900 KLM on FSX with Project Magenta and FSUIPC 4.80 in a home-built cockpit.


Please update to a supported version. The current full release is 4.827, and we are up to 4.839 with interim updates. I know the Schiratti "dowson" page probably labels it older, bt it links to the 4.827 installer just the same, or else just go to the Download Links subforum here, where latest versions are always available.

Looking into this further, I found out that within FSUIPC´s axis assignment all was well, so that when I pressed the left pedal the numbers increased and when I pressed the right they decreased and went negative. But when I went into the Joystick assignment and pressed the left pedal sometimes the numbers would go negative rather than positive and when I pressed the right pedal they would be negative again!


Which numbers on the calibration page are you talking about "IN" or "OUT"? If IN they will be identical to the axis tab readouts UNLESS one of these things is true:

1. There are multiple assignments to the item being calibrated - i.e. rudder in this case,
2. The Axes assignments themselfs have multiplers or other scaling actions defined in the INI file
3. The rudder is not assigned "direct to calibration" and something else is intercepting the FS rudder controls before FSUIPC sees them.

Then I went back into axis assignment and selected to “rescan” or “clear” and nothing would happen (the assignment would not clear),


The rescan will simply pick up whatever axis is changing, which may or may not be the same one. Without knowing more I couldn't answer the "clear" question. If the axis was jittering al the time you might never get in.

I had to exit FSUIPC and go in again. Then in the axis assignment page the numbers move absolutely fine still, ie positive (when push left) and negative (when push right). I noticed too that on one of my tests, when I moved the pedals on the FSUIPC joystick calibration page the values for the Aileron Max field were changing!


The "Max" field? That's set from the parameters in the INI file, once when you enter the tab (or again if you click "reload"), and then only changed if you press the "Set" button just above. There's absolutely no code to change it on its own, it has to be by user action. It sounds like something is actually infiltrating the Windows dialogue in order to do such a thing. It can be done by hooking and subclassing standard controls, but it seems to be a weird thing for somenoe to do -- unless it's virus code.

Maybe you don't mean the "Max" field?

I have raised this with Thomson VA and we agreed I´ll try flying my KLM without Bluesky, then I´ll try my KLM with Bluesky, then (the Posky Thomson Fly 737 from the Posky site with and without Bluesky and then © the Posky Thomson Fly 737 from the Thomson site with and without Bluesky. Hopefully that may give more information for us! In the meantime, can you shed any light on possible causes?


No. It sounds very puzzling. I would need a lot more information anyway -- like how things are assigned, what the calibrations look like 9eg your INI file would help). Also you could find out if it's down to spurious Windows controls flying about by using FSUIPC's logging -- axis logging in this case, though maybe the normal events too, because they can affect axes.

But please update FSUIPC4 first.

Regards
Pete
  • 0

#3 CBB

CBB

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 32 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:29 PM

I just completed a Vatsim flight with my PC restored to before installing the Thomson VA B737 and their Bluesky software, as before there were no issues at all (ie using my Posky KLM B737)

I have updated to FSUIPC 4,839 now.

My next test will be to do a flight with my KLM 737 and the Thomson Bluesky software.

Which numbers on the calibration page are you talking about "IN" or "OUT"? If IN they will be identical to the axis tab readouts UNLESS one of these things is true:

1. There are multiple assignments to the item being calibrated - i.e. rudder in this case,
2. The Axes assignments themselfs have multiplers or other scaling actions defined in the INI file
3. The rudder is not assigned "direct to calibration" and something else is intercepting the FS rudder controls before FSUIPC sees them.


Sorry, was unclear. I am talking about IN and OUT, when I pressed on the left pedal both would go positive in the Axis Assignment page, when I pressed on the right pedal both would go negative. But when I did the same in the Joystick Calibration page immediately after, press left would go positive and then jump to negative and press right would be negative (on both IN and OUT). I checked at the time that the rudder was assigned to direct to FSUIPC.

The rescan will simply pick up whatever axis is changing, which may or may not be the same one. Without knowing more I couldn't answer the "clear" question. If the axis was jittering al the time you might never get in.


Normally I would press "rescan" or clear and then the values next to "Press" would blank out, but in this case neither would do anything. The rudder values were extremely jittery because I tried pressing filter to see if it would calm down but there was little effect.

The "Max" field? That's set from the parameters in the INI file, once when you enter the tab (or again if you click "reload"), and then only changed if you press the "Set" button just above. There's absolutely no code to change it on its own, it has to be by user action. It sounds like something is actually infiltrating the Windows dialogue in order to do such a thing. It can be done by hooking and subclassing standard controls, but it seems to be a weird thing for somenoe to do -- unless it's virus code


I mean the Max Set field in the Joystick calibration page for the Aileron. When I moved the pedal on one of the tests only that field changed which is when I started to think of virus.

I would need a lot more information anyway -- like how things are assigned, what the calibrations look like 9eg your INI file would help).


I have FS axis controls completely disabled and all my axis movements assigned through FSUIPC direct. I did all axes assignments like this, simple MIN and MAX with dead zone in the middle for some (aileron, rudder and elevator) and detentes for flaps and spoilers, nothing more complex.

Attached is my ini file although this is after restoring my PC back...and as mentioned above it is working fine. If I get the same problem on one of the future tests I will send you the ini before restoring

[General]
UpdatedByVersion=4839
History=W6S1U6R0PZK9037A1QJ4S
MouseWheelTrim=No
MouseWheelTrimSpeed=1
JoystickTimeout=20
PollGFTQ6=Yes
BlankDisplays=No
FixControlAccel=No
FixMachSpeedBug=No
VisibilityOptions=No
OneCloudLayer=No
CloudTurbulence=No
CloudIcing=No
GenerateCirrus=No
SuppressCloudTurbulence=No
MaxIce=-4
MinIce=-4
UpperWindGusts=No
SuppressWindTurbulence=No
SuppressWindVariance=No
WindTurbulence=No
TurbulenceRate=1.0,5.0
TurbulenceDivisor=20,20,40,40
SuppressAllGusts=No
MaxSurfaceWind=0
WindLimitLevel=200
WindDiscardLevel=400
WindAjustAltitude=No
WindAjustAltitudeBy=2000
SmoothBySimTime=No
WindSmoothing=No
WindSmoothness=2
WindSmoothAirborneOnly=Yes
PressureSmoothness=0
TemperatureSmoothness=0
DisconnTrimForAP=No
ZeroElevForAPAlt=No
ThrottleSyncAll=No
WhiteMessages=No
ShowPMcontrols=Yes
SpoilerIncrement=512
MagicBattery=No
RudderSpikeRemoval=No
ElevatorSpikeRemoval=No
AileronSpikeRemoval=No
ReversedElevatorTrim=No
ClockSync=No
ClockSyncMins=5
ClearWeatherDynamics=No
OwnWeatherChanges=No
TimeForSelect=4
LoadFlightMenu=No
LoadPlanMenu=No
PauseAfterCrash=No
BrakeReleaseThreshold=75
SaveDataWithFlights=No
ZapSound=firework
ShortAircraftNameOk=No
UseProfiles=No
TCASid=Flight
TCASrange=40
AxisCalibration=No
DirectAxesToCalibs=No
ShowMultilineWindow=Yes
SuppressSingleline=Yes
SuppressMultilineFS=No
AxisIntercepts=No
DontResetAxes=No
GetNearestAirports=Yes
WeatherReadFactor=2
WeatherRewriteSeconds=1
CustomWeatherModify=No
SimConnectStallTime=1
LuaRerunDelay=66
Console=No
DeleteVehiclesForAES=Yes
EnableMouseLook=No
AxesWrongRange=No
InitDelay=0
MouseWheelMove=No
AutoScanDevices=Yes
OOMcheck=Yes
FSVersionUsed="Microsoft Flight Simulator X",10.0.61637.0
SimConnectUsed=10.0.61259.0
[JoyNames]
AutoAssignLetters=No
1=PFC USB Pedals 2
1.GUID={6CE4EAD0-6492-11E1-8002-444553540000}
2=GoFlight GF-TQ6 Throttle System
2.GUID={6CE67170-6492-11E1-800E-444553540000}
0=PFC USB Yoke
0.GUID={6CE4EAD0-6492-11E1-8001-444553540000}
[Buttons]
ButtonRepeat=20,10
4=P101,14,C2999,36
5=P101,15,C2999,37
6=P109,15,K53,9
7=R0,0,C65588,0
9=P0,6,K83,8
10=P109,0,K65,8
14=P167,0,C66079,0
15=P167,1,C66080,0
16=P167,3,C65752,0
17=P167,2,C65752,0
18=P109,7,C66531,0
19=P174,8,C1007,0
20=P174,9,C1007,1
21=P174,10,C1007,4
22=P174,11,C1007,5
25=R101,0,C65671,0
26=R101,1,C65672,31
33=P175,0,K66,8
39=R169,2,K113,8
40=U169,2,K112,8
41=R0,2,C65615,0
42=R0,3,C65607,0
43=U167,3,C65752,0
44=U167,2,C65752,0
45=R101,6,C65734,0
46=R101,7,C65735,0
47=P101,8,C2999,30
48=P101,9,C2999,31
49=P101,10,C2999,32
50=P101,11,C2999,33
51=P101,12,C2999,34
52=P101,13,C2999,35
53=P174,0,C2999,38
54=P174,1,C2999,39
55=P109,8,K13,24
56=U109,8,K13,24
59=P0,7,C66654,0
60=R0,1,C1001,0
61=P109,14,C2999,60
66=U109,0,K65,8
68=U109,14,C2999,61
69=U109,15,K53,9
70=P109,3,Cx0900561A,x01
71=U109,3,Cx0500561A,x01
72=P109,4,Cx0900561A,x02
73=U109,4,Cx0500561A,x02
74=P109,13,K51,9
75=U109,13,K51,9
76=U0,1,C1002,0
78=P101,3,C1120,0
79=P101,4,C1122,0
80=P141,1,C1119,0
81=P141,2,C1120,0
82=P141,0,C1122,0
83=P142,1,C66463,0
84=P142,2,C66464,0
85=P141,17,C66447,0
86=P141,18,C66451,0
[AutoSave]
AutoSaveEnabled=No
Next=1
Interval=60
Files=10
SaveOnGround=No
[GPSout]
GPSoutEnabled=No
[GPSout2]
GPSoutEnabled=No
[WideServer]
WideFSenabled=Yes
AdvertiseService=1
Port=8002
Port2=9002
[Sounds]
Path=C:\FSX\Sound\
Device1=Primary Sound Driver
Device2=Speakers (Realtek High Definition Audio)
Device3=Realtek Digital Output (Realtek High Definition Audio)
Device4=Realtek Digital Output(Optical) (Realtek High Definition Audio)
[ClientNames]
1=PHILIPSPC
2=CHARLES-1
3=CHARLES-2
[Window.Radar Contact]
Docked=1536, 75776, 28672, 77824
[Axes]
0=0X,256,D,1,0,0,0
1=0Y,256,D,2,0,0,0
2=1R,256,D,3,0,0,0
3=2X,256,D,22,0,0,0
4=2Z,256,D,9,0,0,0
5=2R,256,D,23,0,0,0
6=2U,256,D,10,0,0,0
[JoystickCalibration.Project Opensky Continental Boeing 737-900]
AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes
ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes
ExcludeMixtureSet=Yes
ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes
SepRevsJetsOnly=No
ApplyHeloTrim=No
UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No
FlapsSetControl=0
FlapDetents=Yes
FlapStarts=-16384,-11392,-10368,-9472,-6528,-2176,3381,8192,11703
FlapEnds=-11520,-10624,-10112,-8448,-3584,1170,6891,10662,16384
ReverserControl=66292
Reverser1Control=66422
Reverser2Control=66425
Reverser3Control=66428
Reverser4Control=66431
MaxThrottleForReverser=256
AileronTrimControl=66731
RudderTrimControl=66732
CowlFlaps1Control=66162
CowlFlaps2Control=66163
CowlFlaps3Control=66164
CowlFlaps4Control=66165
SteeringTillerControl=0
MaxSteerSpeed=60
Aileron=-15898,-1666,1946,15630
Elevator=-15453,-6950,-3072,15490
Rudder=-15439,-5998,553,14834
Throttle1=-11963,-512,512,9472/32
Throttle2=-11572,-512,512,10240/32
Spoilers=-11264,-9984,-6016,11312/16
Flaps=0,16380/16
[JoystickCalibration.POSKY KLM NC B737-900]
AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes
ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes
ExcludeMixtureSet=Yes
ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes
SepRevsJetsOnly=No
ApplyHeloTrim=No
UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No
FlapsSetControl=0
FlapDetents=Yes
FlapStarts=-16384,-10880,-10368,-9472,-7040,-1920,3771,8192,11963
FlapEnds=-11520,-10624,-9984,-8064,-3456,2080,6631,10922,16384
ReverserControl=66292
Reverser1Control=66422
Reverser2Control=66425
Reverser3Control=66428
Reverser4Control=66431
MaxThrottleForReverser=256
AileronTrimControl=66731
RudderTrimControl=66732
CowlFlaps1Control=66162
CowlFlaps2Control=66163
CowlFlaps3Control=66164
CowlFlaps4Control=66165
SteeringTillerControl=0
MaxSteerSpeed=60
Aileron=-16036,-3263,2825,15567
Elevator=-15422,-5802,-1303,14417
Rudder=-15106,-3332,1993,15830
Throttle1=-11963,-512,512,10112/32
Throttle2=-11703,-512,512,10112/32
Spoilers=-11648,-8960,-6144,11572/16
Flaps=0,16380/16
[Profile.Project Opensky Continental Boeing 737-900]
1=Project Opensky Continental Boeing 737-900
[Profile.POSKY KLM NC B737-900]
1=POSKY KLM NC B737-900
[Axes.POSKY KLM NC B737-900]
0=0X,256,D,1,0,0,0
1=0Y,256,D,2,0,0,0
2=1R,256,D,3,0,0,0
3=2X,256,D,22,0,0,0
4=2Z,256,D,9,0,0,0
5=2R,256,D,23,0,0,0
6=2U,256,D,10,0,0,0
[JoystickCalibration]
AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes
ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes
ExcludeMixtureSet=Yes
ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes
SepRevsJetsOnly=No
ApplyHeloTrim=No
UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No
FlapsSetControl=0
FlapDetents=Yes
FlapStarts=-16384,-11264,-10368,-9344,-7040,-2048,3381,8062,11442
FlapEnds=-11392,-10624,-9728,-7936,-3840,1820,6761,10922,16384
ReverserControl=66292
Reverser1Control=66422
Reverser2Control=66425
Reverser3Control=66428
Reverser4Control=66431
MaxThrottleForReverser=256
AileronTrimControl=66731
RudderTrimControl=66732
CowlFlaps1Control=66162
CowlFlaps2Control=66163
CowlFlaps3Control=66164
CowlFlaps4Control=66165
SteeringTillerControl=0
MaxSteerSpeed=60
Aileron=-15889,-2119,4204,15642
Elevator=-15505,-4183,-316,14974
Rudder=-15717,-5387,6587,15110
Throttle1=-11963,-512,512,9600/32
Throttle2=-11703,-512,512,10240/32
Spoilers=-11264,-9088,-5632,11312/16
Flaps=0,16380/16
  • 0

#4 Pete Dowson

Pete Dowson

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 26,447 posts
  • LocationNear Stoke-on-Trent, UK

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:44 PM

Sorry, was unclear. I am talking about IN and OUT, when I pressed on the left pedal both would go positive in the Axis Assignment page, when I pressed on the right pedal both would go negative. But when I did the same in the Joystick Calibration page immediately after, press left would go positive and then jump to negative and press right would be negative (on both IN and OUT). I checked at the time that the rudder was assigned to direct to FSUIPC.


It certainly sounds like something else was sending rudder values -- either axis rudder set or rudder set controls. I just checked. Even in 2direct to calibration" mode the calibration tabs would pick up any controls for their axis. Those would mix and cnflict with those arriving fromthe direct axis assignmet. The log would show what controls they were, but unfortunately can't show where they originate from.

Normally I would press "rescan" or clear and then the values next to "Press" would blank out, but in this case neither would do anything. The rudder values were extremely jittery because I tried pressing filter to see if it would calm down but there was little effect.


The inputs must have been fast and furious to prevent the rescan or clear working. This is why there's an "ignore axis" button, so that other axes can be handled even with a rogue one monopolising everything.

I mean the Max Set field in the Joystick calibration page for the Aileron. When I moved the pedal on one of the tests only that field changed which is when I started to think of virus.


So you did mean the max value? Wow! As I say, the only code which changes that is one needing user action -- either reload all settings, in which case it is reset from the INI file, or pressing the SET button above which copies in the current axis value providing it is not lower than any of the values to the left. For that field to be changing on its own something external to FSUIPC must be really doing something weird!

Attached is my ini file although this is after restoring my PC back...and as mentioned above it is working fine. If I get the same problem on one of the future tests I will send you the ini before restoring


Okay. There's really nothing wrong at all that I can see in the INI.

Regards
Pete
  • 0

#5 CBB

CBB

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 32 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:52 PM

OK, thanks, I'll update after the next test. The other odd thing re the above (reading it again) is that things went wrong at time of landing...up until then the flight was flawless, I could taxi on departure and take-off was ok....ie something kicked in on the arrival phase which is what is weird. If I had double assignments, etc you would expect the problem to occur from the start.
  • 0

#6 Pete Dowson

Pete Dowson

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 26,447 posts
  • LocationNear Stoke-on-Trent, UK

Posted 29 June 2012 - 08:17 AM

The other odd thing re the above (reading it again) is that things went wrong at time of landing...up until then the flight was flawless, I could taxi on departure and take-off was ok....ie something kicked in on the arrival phase which is what is weird. If I had double assignments, etc you would expect the problem to occur from the start.


Yes, that's true. FSUIPC isn't aware of the phase of flight and doesn't make changes "on the fly" -- only the rudder vs steering tiller adjustments below a transition speed on the ground, if you have both assigned (which you don't).

Pete
  • 0

#7 CBB

CBB

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 32 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 12:47 PM

I have now completed the 2nd test, which was a Vatsim flight in the Posky Thomsonfly 737-800 from the Posky site and totally flawless. The 1st test was a Vatsim flight in the Posky KLM 737-900 from the Posky site and totally flawless as well.

I have now freshly downloaded Thomson VA Bluesky (the pirep software) again and installed it and next test will be this with the a Vatsim flight in the Posky Thomsonfly 737-800 from the Posky site again (not from the T VA site). If this works I will not download the Posky Thomsonfly 737-800 from the Thomson VA site, but close this issue.

Btw, after I downloaded the Thomson VA Bluesky sw this time, it came up with a similar message as before that "Your version of Macromedia Flash ActiveX Control is not compatible with this version of windows". It then redirects me to Adobe for resolution and download of v 11.3.300.257 (I have W7 and had Flash v 10 installed). Before when I installed this (when I had the subsequent problems) I uninstalled V10 and installed this new version and I have a slight suspicion (but not 100%) that something unwanted may have entered at this point. But this time I simply downloaded and installed the new version and it seemed to replace V10 automatically.

I'll let you know how the test goes.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


About simFlight - simflight.com - simflight.de - simflight.fr - simflight.nl - simflight.pt - simflight.es - simflight.it - simflight.jp - simrussia.com - simMarket