FSUIPC: Flight controls working with hydraulics off??

[jgoggi]

Hi Pete,

I have 767 PIC and FS2002. If I check the spikes suppression boxes in FSUIPC, when I turn hydraulics off I keep having flight controls working, while, of course, I should not.

If I uncheck the spike suppression boxes, flight controls correctly don't work any longer.

Any way to correct this?

Thank you very much,

James

[Pete Dowson]

I have 767 PIC and FS2002. If I check the spikes suppression boxes in FSUIPC, when I turn hydraulics off I keep having flight controls working, while, of course, I should not.

If I uncheck the spike suppression boxes, flight controls correctly don't work any longer.

Any way to correct this?

Not that I know of. All the spike suppression feature does is look for FS controls arriving which try to set the control to one of its extreme values (full up/down/left/right). For some reason in some states the 767PIC panel coding does this continuously. FSUIPC simply discards them.

There is no real simulation of hydraulics in FS itself, as such, so it sounds like the 767PIC is simulating the failure by simply sending these same extreme controls.

Obviously FSUIPC cannot differentiate the reason for those controls arriving. The simulation of the hydraulics being off is presumably all contained within the 767PIC coding -- or is it? If you know of a way for FSUIPC to detect the condition then maybe I can check for it.

Regards,

Pete

[jgoggi]

Thank you , Pete.

Unfortunately this spike control also makes flight controls failures, which can be triggered through the PIC menu , impossible to happen.

Couldn't it be possible to let FSUIPC detect the position of the hydraulic pumps switches, so that when the switches are in the OFF position there is no control over the spikes?

Best regards,

James

[jgoggi]

There is no real simulation of hydraulics in FS itself, as such, so it sounds like the 767PIC is simulating the failure by simply sending these same extreme controls.

One thing I forgot:

PIC doesn't send extreme controls (all up /down or right/left) to simulate failures, it just sends a 'no excursion' control, that is the flight control remains in the central (neutral) position.

[Pete Dowson]

Couldn't it be possible to let FSUIPC detect the position of the hydraulic pumps switches, so that when the switches are in the OFF position there is no control over the spikes?

Are these switches part of the 767PIC implementation, or part of FS proper? FSUIPC cannot detect a panels own private switch settings I'm afraid.

[Later]

There don't appear to be any hydraultic pump switches in FS. The nearest I can get is the hydraulic pressure. Does the FS hydraulic pressure drop to some low value when the pumps are off? What value would be the threshold?

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

PIC doesn't send extreme controls (all up /down or right/left) to simulate failures, it just sends a 'no excursion' control, that is the flight control remains in the central (neutral) position.

Well, I don't think it can possibly be the same as a neutral setting (zero value), as the FSUIPC spike elimination only cuts out those values which are at the extremes. It sounds like they have implemented some very strange ways of doing things.

Obviously it would be a lot better if they didn't spike the controls in the first place, but they didn't fix that even though they must have had reports and did make at least two update releases.

I don't have 767PIC installed any more and cannot really delve into this to find out what they are doing. Sorry. All I can suggest is that, since you are going into the menu to set the hydraulics failure, at the same time you switch FSUIPC spike elimination off too.

Regards,

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

PIC doesn't send extreme controls (all up /down or right/left) to simulate failures, it just sends a 'no excursion' control, that is the flight control remains in the central (neutral) position.

Well, I don't think it can possibly be the same as a neutral setting (zero value), as the FSUIPC spike elimination only cuts out those values which are at the extremes. It sounds like they have implemented some very strange ways of doing things.

I've just checked to see EXACTLY what FSUIPC does on "spike elimination". For each of the three main flight controls, if the relevant option is set, it merely discards them if the parameter value is:

0x3fff (16383) or 0xffffc001 (-16383).

No other values are discarded and no other action is taken when these options are enabled. These are the precise single values sent by the 767PIC which causes the spiking.

I really cannot see how this can possibly interfere with any attempts to set the zero, neutral, value for these controls. I think you have something rather more complicated going on there. You'll need to ask the 767PIC folks about that.

Regards,

Pete

[jgoggi]

Pete,

On the PIC overhead panel there are the 2 electric/2 engine hydraulic pump switches and the 3 hydraulic demand pumps knobs. If I push the switches off and turn the knobs to off, hydraulic pressure drops from 3000 psi to 100 psi (as shown on seconday eicas). If the FSUIPC spike boxes are not checked, I won't be able, when I press the num keypad keys, to move the surfaces, and the controls indicators on the secondary eicas remain stuck in the centered (neutral) position.

Then I go to the FSUIPC interface and check the spikes eliminating boxes, without doing anythig else. I try to move the surfaces with the keyboard and they again move smoothly to full excursion as if hydraulic pressure was 3000 psi. More, if I check just one box, say ailerons, only ailerons will move and the other surface will remain stuck to the neutral position.

I understand the logic of spike elimination, and I can't understand why this happens.

Thank you very much for your support.

James

[Pete Dowson]

hydraulic pressure drops from 3000 psi to 100 psi (as shown on seconday eicas).

BUT do you know if these values are FS's own hydraulic pressures, or just ones invented and managed by the panel? You should be able to find out by using the Monitor in FSUIPC. Go to the Logging page and look at the right-hand side. Monitor 08D8 for Engine 1, 0970 for Engine 2. Set the type to U32. I think these values show something like 4 times the psi value.

If the FSUIPC spike boxes are not checked, I won't be able, when I press the num keypad keys, to move the surfaces, and the controls indicators on the secondary eicas remain stuck in the centered (neutral) position.

Is it only the keyboard controls that are affected? FSUIPC doesn't see or know about keyboard controls, it cannot do anything with those in any case. FSUIPC operates on joystick controls.

And of course this does not explain why it cannot do whatever it is doing when FSUIPC is preventing the "extreme" values it is actually sending, of -16383 and +16383, from getting though. Maybe it uses these to signal things between two parts of itself somehow.

I understand the logic of spike elimination, and I can't understand why this happens.

No, nor I. Probably only the 767PIC authors can explain the strange way they achieve this result.

One thing you could try. Remove both the 767PIC DLL (whatever it is called -- sorry, I don't remember) and FSUIPC.DLL from the Modules folder, then copy them back in a different order. i.e. First try the FSUIPC copied in first, then the PIC one, and, in a separate test (remove them again first), the reverse order. This will make them load in a different order, and maybe (but not necessarily) subclass the main FS window in a different order. Possibly, if the PIC DLL catches the joystick controls first it will work the way you want it to.

Regards,

Pete

[jgoggi]

Pete, sorry for taking your time, I tried with the joystick and everything works correctly, when hydraulics are off there's no movement of flight controls. This doesn't happen with keys but I don't mind at all, since I fly with the joystick.

Thank you and sorry again,

James

[Pete Dowson]

Pete, sorry for taking your time, I tried with the joystick and everything works correctly, when hydraulics are off there's no movement of flight controls. This doesn't happen with keys but I don't mind at all, since I fly with the joystick.

Glad you resolved it. Not sure what happens when using keys to fly -- FSUIPC doesn't get a look in with those at all!

Regards,

Pete