Pete, Still no luck with Spoiler problem

[SimRandy]

Hi,

From the other post, after setting in your joystick, I do get an arm range, but its from full down to about half my pot/lever travel range.

Here is what I do in you joystick:

Hit reset then I see the 3 sets. With lever at full down, I hit the first set which is around -16,000 or so. I then move the lever just a tad, and when I see the number go to about -15,600 or so, I hit the middle set. Then I move the lever to full up and get about 9,000 to 10,000 and hit that last set. Is this correct.

I check the spoilers and they are off at full down, then when I move the lever the armed comes on in PM, however, I can now keep moving the lever till about half way down the travel range, then the readings become red and start to show the % of up.

Randy

[Pete Dowson]

With lever at full down, I hit the first set which is around -16,000 or so. I then move the lever just a tad, and when I see the number go to about -15,600 or so, I hit the middle set. Then I move the lever to full up and get about 9,000 to 10,000 and hit that last set. Is this correct.

No! The middle set has two values. You are not following the steps. The centre sets in all cases have two values, to delineate the zone. Please read the instructions, it should be clear. it should even be reasonably clear from the screen where you can surely see boxes for two values in the centre?

The same applies equally to aileron, elevator and rudder settings, and of course also to the individual throttle calibrations where the centre declares the idle range.

Please please please read the documentation. That part at least is in simple numbered steps :-(

Regards,

Pete

[SimRandy]

Well when you get to be as old as me, you see things that are not there, and you dont see things that are there. I will run the sim later and now that you mention it, I think I have seen the other idle set box below the other one.

Oh, I have read your docs over and over. I guess I have to read them under and under more. The easy thing is building the sims, the hard part is making them work.

Thanks

Randy

[Pete Dowson]

Oh, I have read your docs over and over. I guess I have to read them under and under more.

The part relevant here is in the sections headed Joysticks. You'll find a series of numbered steps towards proper calibration. The step you obviously missed is #6. Here it is. I have highlighted the parts you needed to notice:

6. For controls which have centres or intermediate ‘idle’ positions (aileron, elevator, rudder, spoiler, trim and the separate throttle and propeller pitch controls where centre (idle) is between forward and reverse), position the control in its centre, détente (e.g. “arm” for spoiler) or default position. Pressing the centre “Set” button will enter the value in one or other of the two boxes beneath. Each time you press Set the alternate value is recorded, and the boxes show the two most recent values in order (lower above higher). If the values are the same you will have no dead zone around the centre.

That "dead zone" around the centre is the extent of the "Arm" zone on the spoiler, it is the "idle" zone" on throttles with reverse, and it is the "hands-off" zone on flight controls. It is quite important, and 'central' to the whole method FSUIPC provides for accurate calibration!

Regards,

Pete

[SimRandy]

Hi,

I had set the arm zone fine, so as when the spoiler handle is all the way forward, there is no function, and if I move it a little back the "arm" comes on, and then if I start to move it all the way back, it starts to show in red the degrees of spoiler up, however, now I notice that when I hit the runway the spoilers (with arm set) dont go to full up. Just stays in arm mode. Any thoughts. Once the green arm in PM comes on, is that it, its armed and ready? Is there a setting somewhere else that I need t adjust?

Thanks

Randy

[Pete Dowson]

however, now I notice that when I hit the runway the spoilers (with arm set) dont go to full up. Just stays in arm mode. Any thoughts. Once the green arm in PM comes on, is that it, its armed and ready?

That should be okay. Can you try it with an FS throttle quadrant showing on screen, so you can see whether the spoiler engages or not? It may simply be the PM indication which isn't correct.

... Or of course you can use an outside view on touchdown to see if the spoilers are raised -- assuming you are using an FS model with animated spoilers.

[Later]

I've posted a message to Enrico to ask about his spoiler indications in PM as well. I may have a modification to FSUIPC which will help. But note that the % deployment shown by PM isn't actually correct in any case. The minimum deployment is 7%, represented by the value 5620. the range the % should be measured over is actually 4800-16384 but PM currently measures it over 0-16384. This is my fault, as I've documented it like that since FS2000 days. Recent investigations, whilst adding the spoiler axis calibration facilities, have revealed the true behaviour of these FS controls.

Anyway, let me know what you see actually happening on the aircraft, as opposed to what PM indicates. If the spoilers, when armed, do deploy on touchdown but then almost immediately revert to "armed", then I can fix that I think. However, I need to know what you are actually seeing.

The problems arise, of course, because on a real aircraft the spoiler lever would be driven to the flight detente on loading, whereas your lever will remain in the "armed" position even though it has deployed. It may be that this is causing the unwanted extra movement, assuming it isn't just a PM indication.

Regards,

Pete

[SimRandy]

Here is the story.

I went into your joysticks and reset spoilers. My closed or down shows like -15,400 lets say, then i move it a tad back, and hit first idle (arm) set, then move it a tad or 2 tads more, then hit 2nd idle set, then move all the way to up and hit max set.

Now i fly, arm on my handle and land. The PM is still in green arm when I hit the runway and stays there. I look at outside view and spoilers not up. I now move my handle back(up), and outside view shows them raising.

I then check the cockpit FS window view of throttle quad view and here is what I see. Spoiler handle in window is up as is my handle. Now I move my handle to arm, PM shows green arm, but the spoiler handle in FS window moves all the way to full up. Now I move my handle slowly to towards full up, and the handle in the FS MOVES NOW TO ARM !! then as I move my handle more, the FS handle then comes flying back to up.

Any idea on whats happening. Am I setting it right from what I said I do?

Randy

[Pete Dowson]

Now i fly, arm on my handle and land. The PM is still in green arm when I hit the runway and stays there.

I need you to watch the FS spoiler when you touchdown, not PM. I suspect PM is looking at the wrong value (though I am still checking that).

I look at outside view and spoilers not up. I now move my handle back(up), and outside view shows them raising.

But all that is too late. I need to know what actually happens on touchdown.

I move my handle to arm, PM shows green arm, but the spoiler handle in FS window moves all the way to full up.

Yes, that is what FS does if you Arm on the ground.

Now I move my handle slowly to towards full up, and the handle in the FS MOVES NOW TO ARM !! then as I move my handle more, the FS handle then comes flying back to up.

That's pretty much correct -- it's actual position would be just a smidgeon above "arm", which is the 7% deployed area. It shouldn't actually go "flying up" though, it should move to a position corresponding to the lever position, between 7 and 100%

Any idea on whats happening. Am I setting it right from what I said I do?

No idea. Have you tried using the FSUIPC Logging yet? If you log Axis controls (from just before touch down to just after), it may help. Axis control logging will also show exactly what your lever is doing. You could also show me the Spoiler calibration line for your FSUIPC.INI file.

One other thing to try -- press the reset button in FSUIPC's spoiler calibration, so that FSUIPC is no longer anything to do with the spoiler at all, then see if you can make it work properly in FS alone (i.e. exactly as Microsoft intended). Let me know what you see then -- maybe you have a joystick problem.

Pete

[SimRandy]

Well, I did what you said and flipped off your joystick part for the spoilers. I then got the plane up and a spot view of the spoilers. The plane hits the runway and nothing happens with the spoilers. If I then pull my real spoiler handle back, I notice that the FS lever jumps around and then goes to full up. While doing this, I noticed that the PM spoiler indicator (when FS and my real handle) are half way back, the green arm comes on in PM, then goes to showing red degrees of up. So there seems to be differient things going on here, ie, spoilers not moving smoothly, when I pull my real handle, spoilers not raising even though PM and FS game show arm position set, not mattering if I use your joystick or just FS.

I did check your FSUIPC ini and saw some spoiler lines, but not sure what to look for.

Any ideas on what I should try next.

Randy

[Pete Dowson]

Well, I did what you said and flipped off your joystick part for the spoilers. I then got the plane up and a spot view of the spoilers. The plane hits the runway and nothing happens with the spoilers.

Were you also looking at the FS spoiler lever on screen? What does that do?

Can you operate the spoilers smoothly, to any position, whilst in the air?

Before you touched down, had you armed the spoiler (i.e. moved the lever until both the on-screen position showed "arm" and PM did too?

If I then pull my real spoiler handle back, I notice that the FS lever jumps around and then goes to full up.

... not mattering if I use your joystick or just FS.

Playing around with the spoiler lever whilst on the ground does do odd things in FS. This is a known anomaly. don't bother trying to test spoilers on the ground, you will only confuse yourself. All you need to happen on the ground is for ARM to go to full flight detente, and the lever to off to lower them completely. Any other action on the ground is misleading and irrlelvant. Test the spoiler operation in the air, then we are only looking for auto-deployment on landing.

I did check your FSUIPC ini and saw some spoiler lines, but not sure what to look for.

Why not show me the ones you fond?

Any ideas on what I should try next.

Please just be more observant and answer the questions. I think you are missing some each time, and it sounds like the odd and irrelevant FS actions on the ground are confusing you.

Regards,

Pete

[SimRandy]

Hi,

I will try to observe them while flying. See how smooth they go.

I will send you my ini file from the sim PC.

I do have the FS spoiler window open during these tests. When I land, the FS handle just sits there, sorta in the armed spot. PM is green armed.

I will also try using the mouse instead and set the FS spoiler that way to arm. (Not use anything other than the game).

[Pete Dowson]

I do have the FS spoiler window open during these tests. When I land, the FS handle just sits there, sorta in the armed spot. PM is green armed.

If that is the only problem then it sounds like the spoiler axis is jittering (i.e. feeding different values all the time even when it isn't being moved). If that is the case, then the change I have now made here in FSUIPC should fix it -- I am now ignoring changes in the axis if they remain inside the ARM zone.

That change will be in the next interim version of FSUIPC, probably for release in the Announcements above tomorrow, or certainly over the weekend otherwise.

I have also now tested some changes in Project Magenta which fix the spoiler indication on the EICAS (Boeing GC package), and I know Enrico will be making some updates available on his website soon too.

So between them the main indication and deployment of the spoilers should be okay. The only thing remaining for you to sort out is the adjustment for use of the spoilers as speed brakes with deployments from 7% upwards. That will be down to good calibration and will depend on your joystick axis only.

Regards,

Pete

[SimRandy]

Hi Pete,

I watched the FS spoiler handle better this time and upon landing while armed, again it did not move, but then after a few seconds of rollout, it then went to full. On PM the armed in green was still saying armed. If I moved my real spoiler handle, then the PM went to full up in red.

[Pete Dowson]

On PM the armed in green was still saying armed. If I moved my real spoiler handle, then the PM went to full up in red.

Download and install the latest Glass Cockpit software from the PM website.

Pete

[SimRandy]

Pete,

Well the lastest builds of GC worked, and now the spoilers when armed, deploy upon landing.

One thing though, when on the ground, I noticed that I can not set the spoilers to arm. Is that how it is on the real 737?

Randy

ps, see my new post on another problem.

[SimRandy]

Pete,

Well the lastest builds of GC worked, and now the spoilers when armed, deploy upon landing.

One thing though, when on the ground, I noticed that I can not set the spoilers to arm. Is that how it is on the real 737?

Randy

ps, see my new post on another problem.

[Pete Dowson]

One thing though, when on the ground, I noticed that I can not set the spoilers to arm. Is that how it is on the real 737?

No, as I've mentioned here many times before, it is an error in FS. When you arm spoilers on the ground they deploy.

Pete