martinboehme Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Hi Pete, I'm working on implementing a DME hold feature, which I want to contribute to the Tinmouse project. The actual DME distance calculation works fine, but I also want to reverse engineer the formula that MSFS uses internally for the signal strength calculation, so I can take a known signal strength (at the time the user presses the DME hold button) and use that to compute the range of the station. Anyway... to get to the point: I've been able to work out most of the formula, but I've run into a problem that has me stumped, and I was thinking you or someone else on the forum might have come across something similar before. (Don't take this as a request to do any research -- if you don't know, I'll do the digging myself. Just wanted to avoid duplicating work on something that someone else might have cracked already.) The situation is this: I've been able to find out that signal strength depends on horizontal distance from the station, and height of the aircraft above ground. The only snag is that I have to adjust the height above ground by an amount of about +/- 100 feet to get an accurate prediction. I've been able to rule out the alternative possibilities that signal strength depends on altitude (instead of height AGL) or height above the station, so that's not the reason for the variation. If you're interested, the details are here: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=pic_id=885 My suspicion is that, internally, MSFS is using some sort of "ground elevation" value that is slightly different from the ones reported in FSUIPC offsets 0020 and 0B4C (which seem to deliver the same values, albeit with different precision). One possibility could be that MSFS simply uses the elevation of the closest mesh grid point, instead of interpolating between grid points, as I assume the values in 0020 and 0B4C do. So I guess my question is: In you forays through the MSFS code, have you ever come across something like this? Doesn't seem very likely, but I thought I'd ask... Cheers, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dowson Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 The situation is this: I've been able to find out that signal strength depends on horizontal distance from the station, and height of the aircraft above ground. The only snag is that I have to adjust the height above ground by an amount of about +/- 100 feet to get an accurate prediction. I've been able to rule out the alternative possibilities that signal strength depends on altitude (instead of height AGL) or height above the station, so that's not the reason for the variation. Hmm. It seems rather odd that the altitude of the station isn't relevant. Obviously a station on top of a mountain, nearer the aircraft altitude, would at minimum reduce the actual slant distance to the aircraft. If you're interested, the details are here:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=pic_id=885 In that thread you said Interestingly, FSUIPC reports the elevation for DME2 but not DME1; thus, for the case where NAV1 is a "raw" DME without a VOR signal, I have to assume the elevation of the DME is the same as that of the ground below the aircraft (see the code for details). What is wrong with the DME1 elevation provided at 088A? FSUIPC obtains this when it gets the DME1 Lat/Lon data -- it all comes together.Are you saying that it isn't working? If so can you tell me, please whether you are using the latest versin (4.08 for FSX, 3.73 for FS9 and before) and what looks wrong -- I notice later in the thread you were seeing values like 50000, which of course isn't possible in 16-bits -- that's a misinterpretation of a negative value. So I guess my question is: In you forays through the MSFS code, have you ever come across something like this? Doesn't seem very likely, but I thought I'd ask... No, but it would see to be a good idea to get the DME1 elevation sorted out first, then see if you still get wrong answers, doesn't it? Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinboehme Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Hi Pete, thanks for the quick reply! Hmm. It seems rather odd that the altitude of the station isn't relevant. Obviously a station on top of a mountain, nearer the aircraft altitude, would at minimum reduce the actual slant distance to the aircraft. Yep, seems odd... but I've tested a station that has an elevation of around 1000 feet, and the variation in the parameter c that I get relative to a station that is at sea level is only about 100 feet... which is about the same amount of variation that I get between different locations for the same DME station... The formula doesn't seem to be too "physically accurate" anyway... if I've got my physics at all right, the signal strength should be proportional to 1/d^2, not 1/d... shouldn't it? What is wrong with the DME1 elevation provided at 088A? FSUIPC obtains this when it gets the DME1 Lat/Lon data -- it all comes together.Are you saying that it isn't working? I've cleared that up in the meantime -- sorry for not mentioning it. I was doing something wrong in my own code -- a check with FSInterrogate (which I should have done in the first place) revealed that all was well with the values delivered by FSUIPC. My apologies... No, but it would see to be a good idea to get the DME1 elevation sorted out first, then see if you still get wrong answers, doesn't it? Ahem... you're right, of course. :oops: However, I haven't written any code yet for the signal strength issue -- I collected all of the data using FSInterrogate... so it's not my code, at least... but it could well be that I'm missing something obvious. Which was part of my motivation for posting about it... sometimes the act of putting things down in words gives me new ideas. Not so in this case, unfortunately... at least not yet... but I'll keep at it. Cheers, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dowson Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 The formula doesn't seem to be too "physically accurate" anyway... if I've got my physics at all right, the signal strength should be proportional to 1/d^2, not 1/d... shouldn't it? My school physics is rusty, but, yes, I think it's the inverse square law. Certainly not linear. ... but it could well be that I'm missing something obvious. Which was part of my motivation for posting about it... sometimes the act of putting things down in words gives me new ideas. Not so in this case, unfortunately... at least not yet... but I'll keep at it. Okay. If you do discover anything interesting please let us know! Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinboehme Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Okay. If you do discover anything interesting please let us know! Will do! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dowson Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Martin, One thought struck me. How are you computing the "horizontal distance"? Are you making any correction for the curvature of the Earth? Obviously for small distances away from the DME station this should be negligible, but probably NDB ranges are enough for some correction to be needed at their further reaches. The altitude difference would also be affected of course -- is isn't very simple geometry. The DME distance read-out should of course be the direct slant distance. Have you tried just basing signal strength computation on that? Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinboehme Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Pete, thanks for your input on this! One thought struck me. How are you computing the "horizontal distance"? Are you making any correction for the curvature of the Earth? No... what I've been doing so far in this particular department implicitly assumes the earth if flat. What I did there was to take the DME distance reported by MSFS along with the difference between the elevation of the DME station and the ground elevation under the aircraft. Assuming the earth is flat, the DME distance gives me the hypotenuse of a right triangle, and the elevation difference gives me one of its legs. The "horizontal distance" is the other leg, which I can compute using the Pythagorean theorem. Bear with me, though, there's more to come... :wink: The DME distance read-out should of course be the direct slant distance. Have you tried just basing signal strength computation on that? That's what I did originally. What I did, basically, was to take a few signal strength measurements at different (DME) distances from the station; I did these at an altitude of 10,000 feet to make sure the attenuation that kicks in closer to the ground wouldn't affect me. The resulting curve looked very much like 1/dme, so multiplying my signal strength measurements by dme should give me a constant value. This worked very well when I was more than a few nautical miles away from the station, but the values weren't quite constant when I was closer in. So I tested the idea that the variable might be "horizontal distance" (computed from the MSFS-reported DME as above) not "slant distance", and that worked much better. Close to the station, I still got some fluctuations, but not more than I would expect given that MSFS reports DME to an accuracy of 0.1 nm, and the closest measurement I took was at a "horizontal distance" of 0.4 nm. (By the way, as a side note, a strange consequence of the way that MSFS computes signal strength is that if you place your aircraft right onto a DME station at ground level, or as close as you can get, then start slewing upwards, signal strength will actually increase even though you're getting further and further away from the station. Another observation: If your lat/lon position is really close to that of the station then, at altitude, you can get really large signal strength values. I wonder if MSFS checks for a divide-by-zero for the case where the lat/lon position of the aircraft matches that of the station exactly. If I get really desperate, I might try provoking a divide-by-zero to pinpoint the position in the code where signal strength gets computed.) Anyway... I've been going on about "horizontal distance" for a while, but in fact, I'm not too worried about that component of the formula. In fact, for the purpose of determining what happens in the vertical direction, I'm independent of the exact way in which "horizontal distance" gets computed. This is because, for each set of measurements that I take at a given lat/lon position, I divide the measured signal strength values by the signal strength observed at altitude. In effect, what I'm doing is dividing x out of the f(x, h) function I describe in the thread on the Tinmouse forum. Maybe I should give a more detailed description of my measurement process to make this clearer. What I do is that, for a given lat/lon position, I place the aircraft at different altitudes (I record altitude, not height when making my measurements, but I do, of course, make a separate note of ground elevation) and record the corresponding signal strengths. If I plot these measurements, I get a plot that has a straight-line segment, then a kink, then another straight-line segment, and then another kink, after which the plot is horizontal (i.e. signal strength stays constant beyond a certain altitude). What I then do is I divide all of my measured signal strengths by the "final" signal strength in the constant segment. I then fit the two straight-line segments using linear regression. The thing is this: For all of my measurements so far, the functions that I fit to the measured values are identical (up to a residual error of a couple of units of signal strength), except for an offset along the altitude axis. The slopes of the segments are identical; the distance between the "kinks" is always 4666 feet, give or take a couple of feet. Also, I can explain most of the variation along the altitude direction using ground elevation -- up to about +/- 100 feet, my mystery constant c, which I can't resolve. This is where earth curvature could come in -- and for a moment I thought that it might explain this discrepancy -- but here's why I don't think it does: I've taken several measurements at the same distance from the station (10 nm), so the influence of earth curvature should be the same, but the constants c differ. Conversely, I've taken two measurements over sea, at different distances from the station, but the constants c are the same to within one or two feet. I really should do one or two more measurements over sea to make sure this is not a coincidence, but I don't really think it is... Anyway, enough for one post, I think... :wink: BTW, I'm going on holiday tomorrow for a week, so if I don't answer, that's why... Cheers, Martin P.S. Can't seem to make the "quote" tags work... sorry... P.P.S. Edited slightly for grammar and clarity P.P.P.S. Edited again to use a forward slash instead of backslash on closing "quote" tags... 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Pete Dowson Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I've taken several measurements at the same distance from the station (10 nm), so the influence of earth curvature should be the same, but the constants c differ. Conversely, I've taken two measurements over sea, at different distances from the station, but the constants c are the same to within one or two feet. Hmmmperhaps FS is more sophisticated that we're giving it credit for and computing some sort of small "fiddle factor" to represent the variations you would probably get over land -- for variations in ground altitude, clutter, air densitiy, whatever? (I don't know exactly what affects EM waves at these frequencies but I doubt that they are not affected by anything like that). P.S. Can't seem to make the "quote" tags work... sorry... Either use the little "Quote" button provided for the purpose, or enter the closing quote part with a / instead of the \ you are using. ;-) Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinboehme Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Hmmmperhaps FS is more sophisticated that we're giving it credit for and computing some sort of small "fiddle factor" to represent the variations you would probably get over land -- for variations in ground altitude, clutter, air densitiy, whatever? (I don't know exactly what affects EM waves at these frequencies but I doubt that they are not affected by anything like that). Well, I'm sure there are those types of effects going on... and who knows, maybe there's code in MSFS to account for it. I have my doubts, though... it just doesn't fit in with the rest of the picture. I mean, they use an 1/d law instead of a 1/d^2 law... and when you're right on top of a station, signal strength actually increases with altitude instead of decreasing as it should... I find it hard to believe that they should leave those kinds of obvious flaws in the model uncorrected but at the same time go to great pains to model small variations caused by ground clutter... I've been thinking about this a bit more since my last post, and I've come up with an idea (admittedly very speculative) for what might be going on here. Bear with me for a moment. I'm going to go with the following assumption: The code that calculates DME and signal strength is old code, at least at its core. I recall that at one point (circa FS4), MSFS didn't take altitude into account when calculating DME. You could overfly a station at, say, 6000 feet, and you would get a zero DME reading when you were right over the station. (I remember being impressed when ATP corrected this when it came out...) Now, from what I've seen of the signal strength calculation, it seems to me as if this, too, depended only on "horizontal distance" at one point. The way that signal strength varies with altitude (and the strange effects that result when one is right over the station, see above) seems to me as if it was bolted on as an afterthought -- as a "quick fix" to make signal strength do the right thing (at least qualitatively) in most cases. Now, going back into MSFS's history again, I remember there was a time, before "mesh" existed, when ground elevation did not change continuously... I know this was the case with FS4, ATP, and even AS2. (This is the line of FS genealogy that I'm most familiar with... I never owned FS98, FS2000 or FS2002, so I'm not sure which of those versions introduced mesh, but you can probably enlighten me... :wink:) Anyway, as you're probably well aware, what happened in those early days was that there were discrete regions, within each of which the ground elevation was constant. Then, when you passed from one of those regions to the next, the ground elevation would suddenly jump from one value to another. Now, my speculative assumption is this: (a) The version of MSFS that introduced an altitude-dependent effect on signal strength was pre-mesh, i.e. it used the regions-with-constant-elevation model desribed above, and (b) somewhere in MSFS, this primitive elevation model persists to this very day, and the signal strength code was never changed to use the more refined elevation values supplied by the mesh. I realize this is a very, very long shot... and I don't really believe it myself. It's just that I can't seem to come up with a sensible explanation for the data I'm observing... P.S. Can't seem to make the "quote" tags work... sorry... Either use the little "Quote" button provided for the purpose, or enter the closing quote part with a / instead of the \ you are using. ;-) Argh... :oops: hm, good point... Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dowson Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Now, going back into MSFS's history again, I remember there was a time, before "mesh" existed, when ground elevation did not change continuously... I know this was the case with FS4, ATP, and even AS2. Yes, the measured surface altitude was always based on the elevation of the nearest airport. At one time you couldn't even have two airports close together (within several miles) at different elevations. Hills and mountains were "bolted on" polygon-based shapes, on top of the otherwise flat ground. I never owned FS98, FS2000 or FS2002, so I'm not sure which of those versions introduced mesh, but you can probably enlighten me... :wink:) I think it must have been FS5 (becoming FS5.1 then FSW95, the first Windows version). somewhere in MSFS, this primitive elevation model persists to this very day, and the signal strength code was never changed to use the more refined elevation values supplied by the mesh. Hmmm, maybe, though it does sound a little unlikely. When are you going to check FSX? Detailed observations with FSX would be useful as I can feed them back to MS -- there's little point, now, with FS2004. Have a nice holiday! Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinboehme Posted April 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 Pete, I'm back... :wink: Yes, the measured surface altitude was always based on the elevation of the nearest airport. At one time you couldn't even have two airports close together (within several miles) at different elevations. Ah... we'll, I'm afraid that disproves my tentative theory. One of the locations where I made measurements was Queenstown in New Zealand... I made two measurements there, both at 10 nm from the station (which itself is only a few nm from Queenstown airport), so Queenstown airport should definitely have been the nearest airport in both cases (there's not really anything else in the vicinity). However, the "reference altitudes" that I reconstructed from my regressions were quite different (and reflected the elevation difference of about 3000 feet between the two locations). Hills and mountains were "bolted on" polygon-based shapes, on top of the otherwise flat ground. "Bolted on" is a good expression... :wink: They always kind of reminded me of those "squiggly bits" that climbers bolt onto walls to make artificial rock faces... When are you going to check FSX? Detailed observations with FSX would be useful as I can feed them back to MS -- there's little point, now, with FS2004. Yes, I realize that... Unfortunately, I'm not really that "into" FSX yet... my computer isn't quite up to it, and besides, the Tinmouse (which all of this is for) doesn't work with it. It would probably still be a good idea to test it all the same... could provide useful information. We'll see... For the moment, I think I'll try gathering more data... maybe a coherent picture will emerge at some point... Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinboehme Posted May 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Pete, I've been doing some more work on this and have unfortunately hit upon some discouraging results... see the discussion here: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=pic_id=885 Basically, the three different types of VOR (high, low, and terminal) all have different attenuation functions for governing how signal strength changes with height over the ground. It should be possible to work out which of these three functions is being used (see Bob's suggestion), except in rare circumstances when the functions intersect, but I've decided that working out the intricacies of how the signal strength calculation works is probably more work than an alternative approach: Write my own code not only for computing DME distance but also for the VOR radial and localizer and glideslope deviation. Once I have that, I don't really need FS's built in NAV radios for anything except determining signal strength, so I'll cycle NAV1 through all the stations I'm interested in and use that to update the signal strength measurement -- it's enough if this happens every few seconds. I've actually got my own VOR and ILS code working already, except for one small point: ILSs in MSFS (as in real life) have a variable localizer "beam width", which governs how far off the localizer centreline you have to be (in degrees) to get full deflection on the localizer deviation indicator. (This beam width can, for example, be set in AFCAD.) Is there any variable in FSUIPC that I can query to find out this beam width? Of course, once the aircraft is actually on the localizer, I can just compare the localizer deviation reading that I get from MSFS with the deviation in degrees that I compute myself and then use that to deduce the beam width. However, that obviously doesn't work before the intercept when the localizer needle is "pinned". So is there any other way I can get at this value? Another small question: I've already experimented with cycling through different frequencies by setting the frequency in offsets 0x350 or 0x352. What I've noticed is that it takes about a second after I've set the frequency before I get valid data. I was hoping that I would be able to reduce this delay by writing a 2 to 0x388 (the nav radio activation offset), but this doesn't seem to have any effect. Am I just misinterpreting the effect that this offset is supposed to have? Cheers, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dowson Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 ... except for one small point: ILSs in MSFS (as in real life) have a variable localizer "beam width", which governs how far off the localizer centreline you have to be (in degrees) to get full deflection on the localizer deviation indicator. (This beam width can, for example, be set in AFCAD.) Hmm. New one on me. ;-) Is there any variable in FSUIPC that I can query to find out this beam width? Not at present. I'd have to check whether anything is supplied to gauges and so on. If so then I should be able to get it. If it is only used internally to compute signals, then there's not much chance I'm afraid. What I've noticed is that it takes about a second after I've set the frequency before I get valid data. Yes. I think there's a search process which isn't particularly high priority, and possibly simulates real equipment behavious? I suppose it depends on what you are tuning, but VOR's for instance have a delay as they do their 360 degree sweep, don't they? I was hoping that I would be able to reduce this delay by writing a 2 to 0x388 (the nav radio activation offset), but this doesn't seem to have any effect. Am I just misinterpreting the effect that this offset is supposed to have? As far as I know that hasn't done anything since FS2000, possibly earlier. It was necessary because the search didn't start till then. I think it was to get around low performance when changing frequencies through to the one you wanted. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dowson Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Is there any variable in FSUIPC that I can query to find out this beam width? I've searched through all the stuff I can get at, and this doesn't appear in any of it. Sorry. Are you sure the facility in AFCAD actually does something? Looking at the format of the ILS/VOR records in the BGLs there doesn't sem to be any field for such information. Mind you, the documentation I've got has some fields marked "unknown" -- one two byte field for the Glideslope, and one for the LOC. However, they are both in the same relative position for both, suggesting that they both would contain the same type of data. Wouldn't there be a beam width for the glideslope as well -- even though AFCAD doesn't appear to have a setting for it. Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinboehme Posted May 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Pete, thanks for looking into this -- and on a Sunday! Yes. I think there's a search process which isn't particularly high priority, and possibly simulates real equipment behavious? I suppose it depends on what you are tuning, but VOR's for instance have a delay as they do their 360 degree sweep, don't they? Makes sense -- just wanted to check that the behaviour I'm getting is normal and that there's no way to speed it up... Thanks also for the information about the 388 offset... Are you sure the facility in AFCAD actually does something? Yep, the "beam width" certainly has an effect. Actually, I only started looking for this field after I observed that different ILSs gave me different "localizer deviation units per degree". I then had a look in AFCAD and sure enough, I found this "beam width" field... so there must be some way of encoding this in a BGL, because it has an effect in the simulator... By the way, the reason why beam width is adjustable is to ensure that the width of the beam at the runway threshold is always 700 feet. Because the localizer is situated at the far end of the runway, different runway lengths require different beam widths to fulfill this requirement. See here for details: http://www.flightsimaviation.com/aviatim_ILS.html The glideslope, on the other hand, always seems to have a fixed beam width of 1.4 degrees (according to this website), which makes sense, because the glideslope transmitter is always more or less the same distance from the threshold. So far, this also seems to be true in MSFS, but I haven't tested my code on very many ILSs yet... So if the glideslope has that mystery two-byte field as well, it doesn't seem very likely that it would be the beam width. Two bytes would be the right size for an angle, though... maybe they included a beam width for the glideslope, too, and then only noticed afterwards that they could always set it to a constant value? Is this a two-byte field in the BGL file or in MSFS's data segment? If it's easy to do, maybe you could take a look at the values contained in those fields? If it really is a beam width, the glideslope value should be something like 1.4/360*65536=255, or maybe half of that if they're giving the half-width of the beam... hmm, unlucky coincidence, because even if we do find 255 or 256 in that field, it could be a lot of other things, too... I've just looked up the beam width for the localizer at Seattle (KSEA) on runway 34R, that's the ISEA ILS. The beam width in the stock AFCAD file is 3.3 degrees, which corresponds to an FS angle value of 601. So maybe that could help us disambiguate this... Only if it's not too much trouble, though... I've got some ideas about how I can proceed even if I can't read out the beam width explicitly... Cheers, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dowson Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 If it's easy to do, maybe you could take a look at the values contained in those fields? Well, there's not a lot of point for FSUIPC, because I've no way of finding the same information in memory at run time. FSUIPC does nopt scan all BGLs -- it doesn't scan any at all. It would be far too inefficient and certainly the wrong place to do it. What you need is a database, generated by pre-scanning all BGLs, much as used by many other programs. If the value is really there I could even add it to the database generated by my MakeRunways program (aimed at Radar Conract) -- but only for ILS's because non-approach VORs aren't included in my scanning unless they are part of the airport record. Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinboehme Posted May 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Well, there's not a lot of point for FSUIPC, because I've no way of finding the same information in memory at run time. OK... would have been nice if it had been a variable in memory... but I've got a Plan B: I don't think I'll have to scan BGLs... I'll use NAV2 to monitor an ILS that may be tuned (the only other thing I need NAV2 for is for audio identing navaids), so I'll notice very quickly if the localizer comes alive. Then, I can just compare the localizer deviation with the angular deviation to compute the beam width... Anyway, thanks for the help! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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