New FSUIPC3 beta cause Hot-starts on PMDG 747

[jordanal]

Hi Pete,

It appears that the latest FSUIPC3 beta may be adversly affecting the PMDG 747 engine start sequence. After installing beta v3.763, I could not start engines 2 through 4, either manually or through the auto-start sequence. The issue is easily idenified by the EGT going straight to 512 degrees and no EPR. Although, engine # 1 never seems to experience this hot-start issue. I looked through the FSUIPC.log file and did not see anything unusual. My guess is, some of the new features in the FSUIPC betas are conflicting with the custom PMDG 747 coding.

As soon as I reverted back to v3.75, all the engines started fine. This issue was observed over several executions of FS9.

I wanted to find out if any other PMDG 747 owners have experienced this issue so I posted over in their forum first here:

http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=7470&page=

Regards,

AL

[kdundon]

Hi Pete, had the same issue. I reverted back to 3.75 and it worked as designed. Hope you can shed some light on this. Ken

[Pete Dowson]

Hi Pete, had the same issue. I reverted back to 3.75 and it worked as designed. Hope you can shed some light on this. Ken

No, unfortunately I can't. I will need someone in PMDG to tell me what variable they are using which isn't looking right. As far as I am aware I've made no changes which should do anything like what you observe.

I'll ask PMDG to look at this thread and let me know what may be amiss.

Regards

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

The issue is easily idenified by the EGT going straight to 512 degrees and no EPR. Although, engine # 1 never seems to experience this hot-start issue.

I cannot find anything different about Engines 2-4 compared to Engine 1. According to my contact in PMDG the EGT read-out is from their code. The chap in PMDG cannot reproduce your problem, so we're a bit stuck in trying to understand this problem I'm afraid.

You say "My guess is, some of the new features in the FSUIPC betas are conflicting with the custom PMDG 747 coding.", but the problem with that is -- there are no new features which have anything much to do with Engines, only this one:

5. Many of the data values extracted from FS by FSUIPC are now extracted at faster rates, for more smoothness in applications. This relaxes restrictions originally put in place several years ago to avoid affecting FS performance. These days, with such powerful PCs (in FS2004 terms, not FSX! ;-) ) I suspect that FSUIPC operating more often inside FS will not be noticeable -- but if it is, please let me know!

Which is basically just a change in timing.

Anyway, I attach 3.759 -- this is the last I have before the above change (I no longer have 3.761 or 3.762, which only had changes to the Traffic Zapper anyway). Please try that ASAP and let me know.

Oh, one more thing. When you say "and no EPR" do you mean no indication at all, or a constant value of 1.0?

Pete

FSUIPC3759.zip

[Pete Dowson]

It appears that the latest FSUIPC3 beta may be adversly affecting the PMDG 747 engine start sequence.

My PMDG contacts have been trying 3.763 for me with the 747 and cannot reproduce these problems, so this is likely to be quite a tough nut to crack. There's really no much FSUIPC involvement in any of the actions their code uses to start engines.

Do you have any other FSUIPC client programs running at the same time?

And when you say "and no EPR" do you mean no indication at all, or a constant value of 1.0?

Regards

Pete

[jordanal]

It appears that the latest FSUIPC3 beta may be adversly affecting the PMDG 747 engine start sequence.

My PMDG contacts have been trying 3.763 for me with the 747 and cannot reproduce these problems, so this is likely to be quite a tough nut to crack. There's really no much FSUIPC involvement in any of the actions their code uses to start engines.

Do you have any other FSUIPC client programs running at the same time?

And when you say "and no EPR" do you mean no indication at all, or a constant value of 1.0?

Regards

Pete

In my particular case, this is on a Core2Duo E6700 O/C'd. After auto-starting engine 2-4, each slowly rises and stays at 512 degrees, vice dropping back to the idle ~ 410 degrees. I believe EPR stays @ 1.0 even when advancing these three thottles (seperate throttles on a CH Throttle-Quad set in FSUIPC calibration). This installation is also a WideServer (latest full version) with Activesky, FS Flight Keeper, Radar Contact, and FS Real time running as applications on the Wide-client.

When I discovered that dropping back to v3.75 fixes the issue, it was the only thing I changed and then immediately restarted FS9. I ran the same wide-client applications and the same FSUIPC.ini config.

It makes me wonder if the chap at PMDG is testing v3.763 with a FSUIPC calibration set and individual throttles for hardware. I also checked the throttle idle calibration in FSUIPC during this issue and the output for each throttle was set correctly and advancing witht the throttle levers as expected. Same throttle calibration is still in use back on v3.75.

The other thing that should be passed on to PMDG, on these three engines, when it appears to hot-start (512 degrees) the bleed-air never comes out of these engines (2-4) only the good engine #1. This is indicated both in the ECS display and the bleed-air buttons on the overhead, below the pack switches. But, the start buttons do close for each engine and I am able to switch on the hydrolics for each engine.

To my humble eye, it almost appears as a timing issue; like something in the end of the start sequence is missed, and they don't spool back to idle.

[Pete Dowson]

After auto-starting engine 2-4, each slowly rises and stays at 512 degrees, vice dropping back to the idle ~ 410 degrees.

Ah. Completely different to what i reported to PMDG, then, which was an immediate rise to 512 and staying there. :-(

Either way, these values are totally under PMDG control, they aren't FS readouts.

This installation is also a WideServer (latest full version) with Activesky, FS Flight Keeper, Radar Contact, and FS Real time running as applications on the Wide-client.

Retry with no other FSUIPC clients running please, even remove WideServer from the INI file. If it is okay then we'll add them one by one.

It makes me wonder if the chap at PMDG is testing v3.763 with a FSUIPC calibration set and individual throttles for hardware.

I doubt it. The other report said that the auto-start was the same. No axis input involved at all.

I also checked the throttle idle calibration in FSUIPC during this issue and the output for each throttle was set correctly and advancing witht the throttle levers as expected. Same throttle calibration is still in use back on v3.75.

I don't see how anything to do with throttles is related to starting. The throttle doesn't come into it.

The other thing that should be passed on to PMDG, on these three engines, when it appears to hot-start (512 degrees) the bleed-air never comes out of these engines (2-4) only the good engine #1. This is indicated both in the ECS display and the bleed-air buttons on the overhead, below the pack switches. But, the start buttons do close for each engine and I am able to switch on the hydrolics for each engine.

Have you reported these things to PMDG? I have no contact with them again at present.

To my humble eye, it almost appears as a timing issue; like something in the end of the start sequence is missed, and they don't spool back to idle.

Timing of what? The values they use, it seems, are all theirs -- but they do calculate EPR, for instance, from FS's own N1 or N2. Those will be changing on each FS frame now, instead of less often.

Did you try the other version (3.759) I attached above? It was the last one before I made some of these values available more often (for a smoother result on hardware gauges). The latter happened in 3.761. There was no 3.760 (I always have a non-zero 1/1000th digit for Betas). It is works okay in 3.759 I shall have to start on a process of elimination, to find out which values need to be "slowed down" again.

Pete

[jordanal]

Some more facts for you and PMDG.

Same issue with both betas v3.759 and v3.763. Again, v3.75 works as expected.

Disabling WideServer.dll in the modules folder makes no difference. Same hot-start issue is noted with either the above beta versions.

I now believe this to be some sort of guage problem. After closer examination, I can hear the (hot-start) engines 2-4 actually spool-up when I advance their respective throttle levers. Animation on the N1 fan also changes on the respective engines when advancing the throttle lever. EGT is ~ 512 degees, N2 @ 63%, N1 ~ 25%, EPR @ 1.00, and all three are unresponsive to throttle movemnt.

Testing done with PMDG Boeing 747-400 United P & W variant.

Regards,

AL

[Pete Dowson]

Some more facts for you and PMDG.

I don't think PMDG come here. You'll need to post there too.

Same issue with both betas v3.759 and v3.763. Again, v3.75 works as expected.

That's really strange, then. It isn't anything to do with the fast timing on some of the FSUIPC offset values in that case, and there's been no other changes relating to engines.

I now believe this to be some sort of guage problem. After closer examination, I can hear the (hot-start) engines 2-4 actually spool-up when I advance their respective throttle levers.

That confuses me. Why are you touching the throttles during start-up. You operate the start levers (moving them to idle) when the N2% (or whatever the measure is for a 747) reaches a certain value. You shouldn't be operating the throttles at all, surely? They should be in the parked idle position.

I think you need to state all these things you've posted here clearly and concisely on the PMDG support site, saying exactly what steps you are following in trying to get these engines started. Maybe they can understand what is going wrong. I am sorry, but I can't.

[LATER]

On re-reading your statement, I think I may have, perhaps, misinterpreted you. Are you merely operating the throttles because you suspect the engines are actually running even though the gauges are stuck with incorrect values?

[Later Still]

I've run 3.759 with the default 747 and all of the engine values which should be there, from FSUIPC, are there. It sounded a bit as if the "combustion" flag was somehow not getting set, but that works fine. the default 747 engines can be started and shut down with no problems at all.

Unless I can think of something else to try, I've run out of ideas now. I'm afraid we are completely dependent upon PMDG, but they cannot reproduce it at all. :-(

So, as much information as you can to PMDG, unless you want to stick with FSUIPC 3.75 forever. (It was intended to be the last one, really, in any case ;-) Some hope!).

Regards

Pete

[kdundon]

Pete, I tried 3.759 and it did the same. I tried 3.756 and it worked just fine. I have a zip file but it is 1.28megs and is too large to attach. The jpg's inside it show what is happening. One other note I did at takeoff with the error just to see if it would show up on the power up and sure enough I took off normally which leads me to believe it could be an instumentation display issue that is happening. I can email the file to you if you would like. Ken

[Pete Dowson]

Pete, I tried 3.759 and it did the same. I tried 3.756 and it worked just fine.

Hmm. I'm afraid I don't recollect the changes between those two, though I'm sure that 3.759 was the first with the "Traffic Zapper". But that's all new separate code, just called when you use the added FS control. I'm pretty sure, actually, that 3.757 and 3.758 were merely interim internal versions whilst I got the Zapper working correctly.

3.756 had the new brake interception facility in and fully working.

The helo lateral trim facilities were in and released in 3.751.

I have a zip file but it is 1.28megs and is too large to attach. The jpg's inside it show what is happening. One other note I did at takeoff with the error just to see if it would show up on the power up and sure enough I took off normally which leads me to believe it could be an instumentation display issue that is happening. I can email the file to you if you would like. Ken

Yes, you can if you like. petedowson@btconnect.com. Are you a WideFS user, BTW? If so I may have another way to get some information.

Regards

Pete

[kdundon]

Pete, yes I use WideFS and will do what you need to figure this out. Ken

[Pete Dowson]

Pete, yes I use WideFS and will do what you need to figure this out. Ken

I'm sending an email...

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

I think I've fixed this problem in version 3.764, now available in the Other Downloads announcement above. Please try it and let me know.

Regards

Pete

[kdundon]

That did it Pete. It works correctly. Ken

[jordanal]

I think I've fixed this problem in version 3.764, now available in the Other Downloads announcement above. Please try it and let me know.

Regards

Pete

Congratulations Pete! After a quick check of the PMDG 747 using FSUIPC v3.764, I'm happy to report that all 4 engines/gauges started normally, as expected. Advancing the throttles also increases all 4 EPR gauges. You seemed to have fixed the issues noted in this thread.

v/r,

AL

[jordanal]

That did it Pete. It works correctly. Ken

Damn Ken, you beat me by one whole minute! We must have hit the submit button within seconds of each other :lol:

[kdundon]

I type fast. Ken

[Pete Dowson]

Ken and Al,

Glad it all works again. It wasn't as complicated and difficult as it seemed at first. A stupid typo in one of the many offset-mapping tables.

Thanks for helping,

Regards

Pete

[kdundon]

Pete, I am glad I could help and contribute. Thanks, Ken