A COMPLETE MESS!

[foreigndevil]

I'm trying to set up my CH yoke and pedals and 2 Saitek throttle quadrants. I've tried using the User Guide, the downloadable manual and the FS control set up, all to no avail: I always get the same problems. :( Here they are: I can set up the Saitek quadrants to use as throttles (T), mixtures (M) and props (P) but I cannot delete the same TMP assignments on the yoke. When using the Saitek controls I may get one T to work properly, whereas the other may work (too late) or may not work but usually makes the gear extend (an assignment that is not controlled by the quadrant); the M's and/or P's may do the same or they may change my view from VC to outside etc. The yoke controls work as they originally did (without the Saitek quadrants) but then I don't want the yoke to control the TMP's. Is anyone using the same configuration and is there a solution for this? I'm an average pc user (not a programmer) flying FSX Acc on a Vista 32 pc.

[Pete Dowson]

I'm trying to set up my CH yoke and pedals and 2 Saitek throttle quadrants. I've tried using the User Guide, the downloadable manual and the FS control set up, all to no avail

Are you trying to use FSUIPC? Don't start with FSUIPC, get it all working in FS first.

Pete

[foreigndevil]

I've tried to set up using FSUIPC first but also tried in FS without using FSUIPC. I haven't installed the Saitek control manager because I read somewhere that it's better to use FS or FSUIPC (I did install the Saitek drivers). Maybe the CH yoke and Saitek quadrants are not completely compatible? What puzzles me most is that the TPM handles on the yoke keep working even if I delete the assignments in FS.

[Pete Dowson]

I've tried to set up using FSUIPC first but also tried in FS without using FSUIPC. I haven't installed the Saitek control manager because I read somewhere that it's better to use FS or FSUIPC (I did install the Saitek drivers). Maybe the CH yoke and Saitek quadrants are not completely compatible? What puzzles me most is that the TPM handles on the yoke keep working even if I delete the assignments in FS.

Are you sure you are deleting all the assignments in FS? Check all the controllers it lists in the drop down -- it only shows you one connected controller at a time, you have to change the selection to see the others.

Pete

[foreigndevil]

Yes, I know but it doesn't work. I'll uninstall FSUIPC, then try to delete the assignments again, re-assign the quadrants in FS again and then see if they work. After that I can try to install FSUIPC again.

[Pete Dowson]

Yes, I know but it doesn't work. I'll uninstall FSUIPC

You never need to "uninstall" FSUIPC. If you made a mess of your settings, just delete the FSUIPC INI file. Everything you do in FSUIPC is stored in that one file.

And FSUIPC has nothing whatsoever to do with the FS assignments -- if the FS dialogue isn't working you have something wrong with FS and may need to reinstall that, or contact Microsoft support.

Regards

Pete

[foreigndevil]

According to the FSUIPC user guide I just had to move the .dll file from the Modules folder, which is what I did. I spent the whole evening trying to get things working using only FS assignments. Got rid of the yoke TPM assignments but still have problems with the TMP on the quadrants. It seems I can only get one T to work properly, whereas the other responds too slow or does something it shouldn't do if I change something. The last stage was that I got them working (sort of), but the engines didn't get enough power when I pushed the throttles. I'm probably doing something wrong but I had expected it would be more straightforward to program them. I'll just keep trying some more, using FSUIPC this time.

[Pete Dowson]

According to the FSUIPC user guide I just had to move the .dll file from the Modules folder, which is what I did.

Yes, to uninstall. But all your settings are in the "INI" file and if you remove that, but leave FSUIPC there, all your joysticks are left completely alone by FSUIPC -- it never does anything unless you ask it to, so if you remove all your settings it does nothing.

That's why I said you didn't need to "uninstall" it!

I spent the whole evening trying to get things working using only FS assignments. Got rid of the yoke TPM assignments but still have problems with the TMP on the quadrants. It seems I can only get one T to work properly, whereas the other responds too slow or does something it shouldn't do if I change something.

Make sure all of the Sensitivity sliders are set Maximum (full right) and the null zone sliders set Minimum (full left). FS has a habit of setting some of these all wrong.

Pete

[foreigndevil]

That last remark is very helpful. I didn't know how to set those sliders and left it up to FS but then it wouldn't work well. I then tried to set them in another way but also without good results and clicking the 'reset defaults' button wasn't helpful either, because then I had to re-program every axis and button again! Going to try this suggestion now! Thanks!

[foreigndevil]

I start to believe it is impossible to use throttles in FS! I spent some more hours trying to get them to work without success. :( If they work it's only one that reacts normally, the other one is just too slow. I've tried deleting the Saitek throttles and using two levers on the CH Yoke as throttles and they react a little better (i.e. the second one reacts a bit faster) but I cannot get them synchronized. I've tried setting them up in FSUIPC but they just stop working after a while. If I change something, the throttle action gets connected to the raise/extend landing gear and the cycle view function (I've deleted these functions from both the yoke and throttles many times now, only to find that they always come back! FS should be fun but this is getting into a nightmare. Can you please give me plain and simple instructions on how to set up the throttles (what axis, what values go where, etc.) to make them work simultaneously. Thanks.

[Pete Dowson]

I cannot get them synchronized.

Two levers on a control are rarely identical, and in any case synchronisation in real aircraft is not by holding all the levers in-line -- watch a cockpit video sometime and you will see that 747 levers, for instance, are rarely exactly lined up. Each engine is slightly different, the stretch on each cable is slightly different.

FSUIPC does offer a hot key facility to "sync" throttles if you desperately need it, but that simply takes the thottle 1 input and copy it to the others.

If I change something, the throttle action gets connected to the raise/extend landing gear and the cycle view function

I've no idea what you've done there, because there is no relation whatsoever between any of the axis controls and switches like that. I have read of a fault in early Saitek units where random button presses were being sent on occasion, but I thought they'd fixed that, and in any case I thought that was only on their yoke. Maybe it was on the quadrant too? There is a special FSUIPC parameter to seuppress transient button pressings which was added especially for their wonky units.

(I've deleted these functions from both the yoke and throttles many times now, only to find that they always come back! FS should be fun but this is getting into a nightmare. Can you please give me plain and simple instructions on how to set up the throttles (what axis, what values go where, etc.) to make them work simultaneously. Thanks.

No, sorry. If you cannot set up your controls to work in FS then really it is time to throw them away, or at least contact their support. Do they sell them for use in FS? If not maybe you should get some which are intended for use in FS.

Forget FSUIPC until things work reasonably in FS.

I cannot help with any of this stuff directly as I don't use any of it. All my controls are PFC (http://www.flypfc.com) and work through my own drivers.

Regards

Pete

[foreigndevil]

I would expect that there is a slight difference in reaction speed between one throttle (T) and the other (that's indeed realistic), but I can't understand why in the FS aircraft one moves forward and one stays in place or why they have only two positions: full open or full closed (no way to get them somewhere in between). The yoke and quadrants are made for FS, so, that's not the problem. But I guess that if you heard about an erratic buttons fault, that's exactly what I'm experiencing! The reason why I bought FSUIPC was to get the controls to work as realistic as possible. Now I feel I'd better not bought the quadrants nor FSUIPC. Anyway, I'll look for help elsewhewre, starting with Saitek. But there's some clarification I need from you: when trying to set the T's up in FSUIPC I notice that the values for each of the T's are different from one another; is that normal? shouldn't they be the same? also which axis goes with which throttle (they also differ)?

[Pete Dowson]

I can't understand why in the FS aircraft one moves forward and one stays in place or why they have only two positions: full open or full closed (no way to get them somewhere in between).

That sounds exactly like you have them set somewhere (in their driver?) for "digital" operation instead of analogue. Most game pads, for instance, operate in "digital" mode, where each position is full on or full off, nothing in-between. Check the drivers -- and certainly seek support from the makers.

I guess that if you heard about an erratic buttons fault, that's exactly what I'm experiencing!

It seems one of the Saitek units were faulty when first released (the yoke I think). There is a thread about it here somewhere. If you check the FSUIPC "History" document you'll find this, in the notes for release 3.80 (FSUIPC3) or 4.25 (FSUIPC4):

A special facility is added to eliminate short (transient) button press indications. This is intended to help deal with some devices which create occasional spurious button press signals.

Add EliminateTransients=Yes to the main [buttons] section in the FSUIPC.INI [or FSUIPC4.INI] file to enable this. It operates only with locally-connected joysticks (but not EPIC or GoFlight devices). Note that enabling this option may mean you have to consciously press buttons for slightly longer. It depends on the PollInterval, another [buttons] parameter, which defaults to 25 (milliseconds). A “transient” button indication is one which only exists for one poll, so a real press would have to last up to 50 mSecs to be sure of being seen (more, allowing for variations in the polling due to processor/FS activity). You may find you need to adjust the PollInterval too.

However, having axes that only signal full on or full off is no good anyway. That looks to be the first thing you need to sort out.

Now I feel I'd better not bought the quadrants nor FSUIPC. Anyway, I'll look for help elsewhewre, starting with Saitek.

Saitek's certainly your first port of call if these units are giving the sort of trouble you are describing.

But there's some clarification I need from you: when trying to set the T's up in FSUIPC I notice that the values for each of the T's are different from one another; is that normal?

Which values are you talking about? I assume "T" is for "Throttle"? The "IN" values are those it reads from your device -- it sounds like those are only something like +16384 and -16384, with nothing in-between, from what you are saying? Or some other two extreme values? I can't do anything about that -- FSUIPC is simply reporting what your device, or its driver, are giving it.

The output (OUT) values are the calibrated values, and they depend on YOU, on how you set the min/centre/max values, following the simple steps given in the User Guide.

... which axis goes with which throttle (they also differ)?

I thought that was obvious. That's up to you. Why do you think otherwise?

You can assign them in FS or in FSUIPC. You assign whatever axis you want for whichever purpose you want. There's nothing pre-defined (though FS will certainly make some initial assumptions, especially if it recognises your device's name). Just be sure not to assign the same axis in both FS and in FSUIPC's "Axes" tab. You only want to use one or the other or they will conflict.

Pete

[foreigndevil]

Thanks for the explanation. Some of it is clear to me, some of it is not. I'm not familiar with programming and need to learn the basics. What I meant by the throttle 'values' is indeed "something like +16384 and -16384" but they are different for both throttles, one has 0 and 16384 for instance, whereas the other has "something like +16384 and -16384" (and they may change each time I try to calibrate but they are never identical). Then, when I move the handles to set the axis in FS, the axis Z, Y or X is created automatically, nothing I can do about it and one throttle becomes Z/Y, the other X. What I don't understand is what this axis actually means, is there a connection between how they move and the type of axis, in which case I would logically expect the two throttles to use the same axis (and they never do). There is also the throttle axis and the axis for each throttle individually. Do I assign all three or just the two individual ones? Maybe the throttle axis is for only one throttle? I have tried both ways and no luck. And should the first one have an X/Z axis and the second one Y or what would be normal? I have downloaded 'new' drivers for the Saitek throttles from their website that should get rid of bugs and will see if this changes things. It seems I have a lot of work and study ahead to assign a few buttons and handles:roll: Thanks for taking the time anyway.

[Pete Dowson]

What I meant by the throttle 'values' is indeed "something like +16384 and -16384" but they are different for both throttles, one has 0 and 16384 for instance, whereas the other has "something like +16384 and -16384" (and they may change each time I try to calibrate but they are never identical).

If you cannot get any sort of consistency at all from your controls, either they, or their connection to your PC are faulty.

Then, when I move the handles to set the axis in FS, the axis Z, Y or X is created automatically, nothing I can do about it and one throttle becomes Z/Y, the other X.

How do you mean, "created automatically"? The nomenclature X, Y and Z refer to the actual names of your axes in Windows. They'll be fixed, you don't "assign" an axis to "X", the "X" axis is defined by how it is wired and numbered in the innards of its hardware and its driver software. For a yoke X is usually the airleron and Y is usually the elevator, with Z often being the throttle. But they don't have to be. These letters, X Y Z R U V etc are just references to YOUR axes, they don't in themselves signify any particular action, and they most certainly are NOT "created", automatically or otherwise, they are there, operated by you, moving them with your hands!

I cannot understand why you are remotely concerned or worried about Xs Ys and Zs. Just take it for granted than whether you move an axis or not, it has a name!

What I don't understand is what this axis actually means

The names X, Y Z and so on are just that, names. They mean nothing whatsoever. How would YOU describe them? Maybe "the one on the left with the black knob"? That's all very well, but the PC cannot see your kit, and different controllers look different!

is there a connection between how they move and the type of axis

No, you can use any for anything. But it would be a bit strange using the yoke for throttle control and vice versa. Usually you select functions resembling those in a real aircraft, in similar positions and with similar colouring, maybe. But you don't have to. If you want to operate your rudder with the right-most "throttle" lever thingy, that's entirely up to you.

... in which case I would logically expect the two throttles to use the same axis (and they never do).

That would be crazy. If two throttles did exactly the same thing, why have two -- you could never use them separately!

There is also the throttle axis and the axis for each throttle individually. Do I assign all three or just the two individual ones?

This is all up to you. If you want to use only one throttle for all engines, assign it to the generic throttle. If you want separate throttles for each engine, assign one each to the individual engine throttles. Surely all this is obvious? You seem to be making it extremely complicated for yourself. Why?

Maybe the throttle axis is for only one throttle? I have tried both ways and no luck. And should the first one have an X/Z axis and the second one Y or what would be normal?

I've no idea what would be "normal" for you. You evidently have too much flexibility! Maybe you should sell the kit you have and just get a simple joystick or gamepad? :roll: :roll: The whole point of the flexibility of the sort of kit you have is .. its flexibility. But getting yourself totally confused because you don't know what you want each lever to do is just not worth the hassle. When will you ever fly?

Pete

[foreigndevil]

Okay, now it's clear to me, the axis is just a letter assigned to the action lever/button. That's what I wanted to know.

I can understand that you don't understand what I try to find out because for you this is all very simple and logical. After all, you created FSUIPC. But try to understand that some people don't understand your FSUIPC 'language' because it is completely 'alien' and not at all 'obvious'. Most FS users are used to plugging in the USB device and play, they're not familiar with what axis goes where and why. It is all done automatically. I'm one of those. When I read your user's manual, I see it was written by a programmer for people with at least some knowledge of programming. It is not written for the average user who for some reason or other gets into trouble because the hardware doesn't do what it is supposed to according to the FSUIPC manual. Too little explanation makes one look for more detailed explanations and that's what I'm trying to do. Don't worry about me complicating things, I don't. It's just that we didn't understand each other because we see/look at things differently. I'm not a computer illiterate, just an FSUIPC one.

And yes, I can always go back to my plug-and-play CH yoke and throw away the throttles and FSUIPC (would be quite a waste of money) but I'm pretty sure I'll get them working somehow.

[Pete Dowson]

I can understand that you don't understand what I try to find out because for you this is all very simple and logical. After all, you created FSUIPC. But try to understand that some people don't understand your FSUIPC 'language' because it is completely 'alien' and not at all 'obvious'.

Sorry, but none of that is anything whatsoever to do with FSUIPC. The axis names are used in FS too - in fact I thought you WERE talking about FS itself, not FSUIPC.

Please DO NOT USE FSUIPC at all UNTIL you have got thing sorted out with FS. I have said this before and I cannot emphasise it enough. If you cannot sort things out in FS, you willl NEVER do it in FSUIPC, so you might as well give it up now!

I'm not going to contribute any more to this thread until this gets back to be a sensible discourse. I do not like your accusations nor implications, none of which have any basis in truth. There is no programming nor programming knowledge required in any of this. If you'd simply followed the simple steps in the User guide you'd never get in such a stupid mess. If you've been messing about in FSUIPC I advise you to DELETE your FSUIPC INI file (from the modules folder) then go and sort things out in FS -- which is actually what I was talking about in my last reply, as everything you said seemed to be about FS, not FSUIPC!

Pete

[foreigndevil]

I am not 'accusing' you of anything, just stating that the user guide, IMHO, is not written for the average user. And yes, I'll try to get things sorted out by trying different Saitek drivers and getting them to work in FS first. But don't tell me I got in this mess because I didn't follow 'the simple steps' in your user guide. I did and it didn't work. I'm not blaming you or your program for this, I just wanted some more information to understand what was happening. So, indeed, let's be sensible. I'll try to work out the faulty reactions of the hardware and then try assigning in FS and (maybe) FSUIPC again and will contact you again if there are more troubles then. I suggest you close this thread.