proper rudder trim implementation

[mslim]

Hi,

I have been slowly working my way through FSUIPC and I see why everyone raves about it. I have managed after a few false starts to have an efficient set up on most of my controls and buttons. The one item I can't seem to implement correctly is the rudder trim. I have a Thrustmaster Hotas X with a horizontal rocker switch on the throttle (S axis). On the RW Pilatus PC-7 this is used for rudder trim. I would like to implement this switch as rudder trim.

I am using Offset Increment/Decrement Controls from pg 32 of the User Guide for my elevator trim and it works extremely well. I have tried using it (x0C04) for rudder trim but it is not working correctly. Please take a look at my ini file and see what I'm doing wrong.

Feel free to point out any other glaringly poor choices in the file.

Thanks in advance for any assistance this forum can offer.

Regards,

Slim

[General]

UpdatedByVersion=4853

History=F6W7LBF5VNGCLWG3XB3OB

InitDelayDevicesToo=No

MouseWheelMove=No

MouseWheelTrim=No

MouseWheelTrimSpeed=1

JoystickTimeout=20

PollGFTQ6=Yes

BlankDisplays=No

FixControlAccel=No

FixMachSpeedBug=No

DeleteVehiclesForAES=Yes

AutoScanDevices=Yes

VisibilityOptions=No

OneCloudLayer=Yes

CloudTurbulence=No

CloudIcing=No

GenerateCirrus=Yes

SuppressCloudTurbulence=No

MaxIce=3

MinIce=-1

UpperWindGusts=No

SuppressWindTurbulence=No

SuppressWindVariance=No

WindTurbulence=No

TurbulenceRate=1.0,5.0

TurbulenceDivisor=20,20,40,40

SuppressAllGusts=No

MaxSurfaceWind=0

WindLimitLevel=200

WindDiscardLevel=400

WindAjustAltitude=No

WindAjustAltitudeBy=2000

SmoothBySimTime=No

WindSmoothing=Yes

WindSmoothness=2

WindSmoothAirborneOnly=Yes

PressureSmoothness=0

TemperatureSmoothness=0

DisconnTrimForAP=No

ZeroElevForAPAlt=No

ThrottleSyncAll=No

WhiteMessages=No

ShowPMcontrols=No

SpoilerIncrement=512

MagicBattery=20

RudderSpikeRemoval=Yes

ElevatorSpikeRemoval=Yes

AileronSpikeRemoval=Yes

ReversedElevatorTrim=No

ClockSync=No

ClockSyncMins=5

ClearWeatherDynamics=No

OwnWeatherChanges=Yes

TimeForSelect=4

LoadFlightMenu=Yes

LoadPlanMenu=Yes

PauseAfterCrash=Yes

BrakeReleaseThreshold=75

SaveDataWithFlights=Yes

ZapSound=firework

ShortAircraftNameOk=No

UseProfiles=Yes

EnableMouseLook=No

AxesWrongRange=No

TCASid=Flight

TCASrange=40

AxisCalibration=No

DirectAxesToCalibs=No

ShowMultilineWindow=Yes

SuppressSingleline=No

SuppressMultilineFS=No

AxisIntercepts=No

DontResetAxes=No

InitDelay=0

GetNearestAirports=Yes

OOMcheck=Yes

WeatherReadFactor=2

WeatherRewriteSeconds=1

CustomWeatherModify=No

SimConnectStallTime=1

LuaRerunDelay=66

Console=No

LogEvents=Yes

LogLua=Yes

DebugLua=Yes

LogAxes=Yes

LogButtonsKeys=Yes

FSVersionUsed="Microsoft Flight Simulator X",10.0.61637.0

SimConnectUsed=10.0.61259.0

[JoyNames]

AutoAssignLetters=No

1=Saitek Pro Flight Cessna Rudder Pedals

1.GUID={2F122DF0-5981-11E2-8001-444553540000}

0=T.Flight Hotas X

0.GUID={05B0A020-0713-11E1-8001-444553540000}

[buttons]

Buttonrepeat=20,10

2=R0,3,Cx32000BC0,x3FFF0100

3=R0,2,Cx42000BC0,xC0010100

4=P0,10,C65570,0

5=P0,4,C65758,0

6=P0,5,C65759,0

7=P0,6,C65580,0

8=P0,11,C65751,0

9=P0,7,C66541,0

10=R0,1,C65588,0

[MacroFiles]

1=Meggitt2100

[AutoSave]

Next=1

Interval=60

Files=5

SaveOnGround=No

AutoSaveEnabled=Yes

AlsoSave=my restart

AlsoInterval=60

5=Thu 192129

1=Thu 190731

2=Thu 190835

3=Thu 190935

4=Thu 191631

[GPSout]

GPSoutEnabled=No

[GPSout2]

GPSoutEnabled=No

[WideServer]

WideFSenabled=Yes

[sounds]

Path=C:\Program Files\Microsoft Games\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\Sound\

Device1=Primary Sound Driver

Device2=Realtek HD Audio output

Device3=Modem #0 Line Playback (emulated)

Device4=M-Audio Delta AP Multi

Device5=M-Audio Delta AP 1/2

Device6=M-Audio Delta AP S/PDIF

[Keys]

1=81,10,65876,0

2=190,10,65752,0

3=70,10,66237,0

4=33,8,65775,0

5=34,8,65777,0

9=40,8,65771,0

10=38,8,65769,0

[Axes]

0=0X,256,D,1,0,0,0

1=0Y,256,D,2,0,0,0

2=0Z,256,D,4,0,0,0

3=0S,256,D,28,0,0,0

4=1X,256,D,7,0,0,0

5=1Y,256,D,8,0,0,0

6=1R,256,D,3,0,0,0

[JoystickCalibration]

AllowSuppressForPFCquad=Yes

ExcludeThrottleSet=Yes

ExcludeMixtureSet=Yes

ExcludePropPitchSet=Yes

SepRevsJetsOnly=No

ApplyHeloTrim=No

UseAxisControlsForNRZ=No

FlapsSetControl=0

FlapDetents=No

ReverserControl=66292

Reverser1Control=66422

Reverser2Control=66425

Reverser3Control=66428

Reverser4Control=66431

MaxThrottleForReverser=256

AileronTrimControl=66731

RudderTrimControl=66732

CowlFlaps1Control=66162

CowlFlaps2Control=66163

CowlFlaps3Control=66164

CowlFlaps4Control=66165

SteeringTillerControl=0

MaxSteerSpeed=60

Aileron=-16380,-512,512,16380

Elevator=-16380,-512,512,16380

Throttle=-15867,15738

Rudder=-16380,-512,512,16380

Rudder Trim=-16380,-512,512,16380

LeftBrake=-16380,16380/16

RightBrake=-16380,16380/16

SlopeThrottle=-4

SlopeRudder=6

[Profile.Single Engine Prop]

1=American Champion Citabria FSX Red and White

2=American Champion Scout FSX Midnight Blue with Red

3=American Champion Decathlon FSX Starburst Red 2

4=Maule M7 260C Yellow and Blue

5=Maule M7 260C paint3

6=Tiger Moth VHDHA

7=Warbirdsim P-51D Mustang "Carolyn's"

8=American Champion Scout FSX Midnight Blue with Red

[Profile.Twin Engine Prop]

1=Milviz Baron 55_3

2=Milviz Baron 55_6

3=Beech AT-11 N501

4=Milviz Baron 55

5=Milviz Baron 55_1

6=Milviz Baron E55

7=Milviz Baron E55_1

8=Milviz Baron E55_3

9=Beech D18S N412K

10=Beech D18S Shupe

11=CBFS Mosquito Mk.IV W4069_1942.

12=CBFS Mosquito Mk FBIV DZ360 single

13=CBFS Mosquito Mk FBIV DZ633 double

14=CBFS Mosquito Mk FBIV USAAF

15=CBFS Mosquito Mk FBIV DK333 single

16=CBFS Mosquito Mk FBIV DZ421 single

17=CBFS Mosquito Mk FBIV DZ461 single

18=CBFS Mosquito Mk FBIV DZ548 single

[Profile.Twin Engine TurboProp]

1=Aerosoft OV-10 CDF Porterville

2=Aerosoft OV-10 CDF

3=Aerosoft OV-10 Blue Angels x1

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5=Aerosoft OV-10A AirForce Close Air Support

5=Aerosoft OV-10A Marines

6=Aerosoft OV-10A Marines

7=Aerosoft OV-10A AirForce

8=Aerosoft OV-10A Marines CAS A Shau

9=Aerosoft OV-10A AirForce Forward Air Control

10=Aerosoft OV-10A Marines Forward Air Control

11=Aerosoft OV-10A NAVY RRS3

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13=Aerosoft OV-10A AirForce LR

14=Aerosoft OV-10A AirForce Training

15=Aerosoft OV-10A Marines Training

16=Aerosoft OV-10 Nasa 524

17=Aerosoft OV-10B G-BZGK

18=Veneaviones Turbo Commander 690B WL N927SM VC

19=Veneaviones Turbo Commander 690B WL N1050P VC

20=Veneaviones Turbo Commander 690B N36SW

21=Veneaviones Turbo Commander 690B N840JC VC

22=Veneaviones Turbo Commander 690B N425RR VC

23=Veneaviones Turbo Commander 690B N26MA VC

24=Basler U.S. Forest Service

25=Basler BT67 US Department of State

26=Basler BT67 Airborne Support

27=Basler BT67 Mauritania Air Force

28=Piaggio P-180 Avanti V2011 Avantair

29=Piaggio P-180 Avanti V2011 Maserati

30=Piaggio P-180 Avanti V2011 AMI

31=Piaggio P-180 Avanti V2011 ESERCITO

32=Piaggio P-180 Avanti V2011

[buttons.Twin Engine TurboProp]

0=R0,9,C65602,0

1=U0,9,C65604,0

2=P0,8,C65589,0

[Profile.Single Engine TurboProp]

1=PC-9 Release Version 1 #3

2=PC-9A Release Version 1 #0

3=PC-9A Release Version 1 #1

4=PC-9A Release Version 1 #2

5=PC-9A Release Version 1 #3

6=PC-9A Release Version 1 #4

7=PC-9A Release Version 1 #5

8=PC-9A Release Version 1 #6

9=PC-9A Release Version 1 #7

10=PC-9 Release Version 1 #0

11=PC-9 Release Version 1 #1

12=PC-9 Release Version 1 #2

13=PC-9 Release Version 1 #4

14=PC-9 Release Version 1 #5

15=FSD Porter BushMaster Air Charter on Wheels

16=FSD Porter Air America on Wheels

17=FSD Porter Aussie Army on Wheels

18=PC-7_ASF

19=PC-7SAF v.2 A-949

20=A-29B

21=A-29B_FAC

22=A-29B_RAFdesert

23=A-29B_USMnsawc

24=A-29B_USN

25=PC-9 Release Version 1 #0

26=PC-9 Release Version 1 #1

27=PC-9 Release Version 1 #2

28=PC-9 Release Version 1 #4

29=PC-9 Release Version 1 #5

[buttons.Single Engine TurboProp]

0=P0,8,C65589,0

1=R0,9,C65602,0

2=U0,9,C65604,0

[jetblst]

Hi Slim,

I am no way an expert in offsets but if you look at some of my posts you may get SOME help.

Here, this is a repost from a user who posted in my post about offsets. I downloaded the SDK for the programmers guide and also for the list of offsets. From there you can get the proper offset number and start experimenting with them until Pete gets back. I am not sure if you have the proper offset for what you want to do. I have no need for rudder trim as of now so I dont know. I too have the elevator trim set up like you do and yes it rocks!!!

Anyway here you go. T

here is documentation included in the FSUIPC SDK. Link taken from this page http://www.schiratti.com/dowson.html The SDK is listed under the FS2004 section of the site but its actually the same SDK for all supported versions i.e. FS2004, FSX and Prepar3d.

http://fsuipc.simfli.../FSUIPC_SDK.zip

Good Luck!

[Andydigital]

Why not just use FS Controls rather than messing with offsets, you are greatly over complicating things, search the document "list of FS Controls" for the word "rudder trim".

[mslim]

Thanks Andy and jetblst for the prompt responses.

Jetblst I was aware of the X0C04 offset for rudder trim as per the SDK and User Manual. However something I did (or did not do) is preventing a useful implementation of rudder trim.

Andy I believe that the ini file reflects the assignment to direct to FS Controls as you suggested but it seems to be an all or nothing assignment. When I hit the rocker switch to the right it jumps to 100% right rudder trim. I obviously need steps or smaller increments. I wonder if it would help to utilise the "set up to 10 ranges of action" box? The rocker switch on the Hotas X is only available for assignment as the S axis. It is not available AFAIK as a joystick button. There is possibly a mechanical problem in the rocker switch itself although the rest of the joystick pots are smooth and consistent. When I try to look at the Delta value it is either 0 or -16383 or +16383, very twitchy. I do not see intermediate values as with the other axes.

I know Pete is probably overloaded w/ emails and work after the Holidays but perhaps when things settle down he'll dissect my ini file and make some suggestions as I really need the rudder trim for high torque AC such as the P51 and Skyraider.

Best Regards,

Slim

[Andydigital]

Rudder trim is best setup with buttons and not an axis, there is not enough resolution in any joystick axis to work well with rudder trim, I have the similar stick and not even the Warthog has enough resolution. I use a hat switch and use a repeat while held function and also have another button setup to centre the trim quickly for takeoffs etc. I've tried an axis many times in the past for rudder trim and have never been happy with the results. Just use the FS Controls for trim increase and decrease in increments, it's a lot less hassle and works fine in my opinion.

Pete is still on holiday, he's not back for a few days yet.

[mslim]

Hi Andy,

I am using the HOTAS X hat switch for view (pan) directly in FSX so it's not available for rudder trim. I guess if you have the beautiful Warthog controller you have many buttons you can assign. I have assigned all my buttons to higher priority functions. Maybe I'll just use a key press if Pete doesn't have any suggestions. I liked the idea of the rocker switch for rudder trim as that is the way Pilatus did it on their military aircraft.

Slim

[jetblst]

Slim,

Silly question, but you are using the proper format in your parameter section?

Here is what I just did and it works.

Go to your axis assignment in FSUIPC as you know how to do. Go page and work on your rocker axis. Move it so FSUIPC can see it. Go to your "Set up to 10 ranges for action" section.

By default you will be working on "1" Here is the tricky part. Center your axis (Rocker) push down on it and you should see the in and out windows populate with positive and negative numbers.

The From and the To windows will be where you desire your range to be. On my set up my "1" range is From window is -6837 and my To Window is - 387. That determines my range of travel of my axis, for the "1" or FIRST range. Within that AXIS range I want my RUDDER TRIM to move to the RIGHT very slow. SO THEN

CHECK both the UP and the Down box.

In the control sent when range entered select Offset Sword Increment.

IN THE OFFSET box put in x0C04 IN THE PARAMETER box put in 64/16383 This will give you a slower rate of trim.

MAKE SURE YOU CHECK THE BOX THAT SAYS " CONTROL TO REPEAT WHILST IN RANGE" Super important. :)

Now check it. It should move the trim slowly.

Wash rinse repeat for step 2

MY Step 2 or 2nd "2" range goes like this.

2 From = -16384 To = -6837 <-- That number is where I left off on the first range. Its important. Its the start of the second range of the axis. Again check both the up and the down boxes.

In the "Control sent when range entered" box again, make sure you have "Offset Sword Increment" selected

In the "Offset window again make sure you have x0C04"

In the "Parameter window this time change the 64 to 128. This gives less steps for the trim to travel making the trim travel F A S T E R. So your Parameter window should show 128/16383.

Now do the same for two more ranges on your axis going the other direction. To do this simply make sure you change the Control sent when range entered window to Offset Sword Decrement

and make sure you put in a "-" in front of the 16383 number in the Parameter window. eg 128/-16383.

Again dont forget to check the Control to repeat whist in range box on all of this. LOL I didnt a couple of times and got :angry: at myself.

NOW,

If none of the above works it might be your axis on the stick itself. It may not be a true axis? I dont know. I did this via my X52. I did not do this on my kids flight stick as he is asleep and if he saw me walking out of his room with his flight stick he'd be up all night. :)

Let me know if this works!

[jetblst]

PS, I forgot to tell you, the added bonus to this step if you take the time is now you can have a multispeed trim which will be VERY handy for fine trim. Id make sure to start give myself a good null point or in other words start my ranges at like 500 and -500 and go from there. That way you have a "zero trim movement area" on your axis. Sorry to put it into simple words but that is how I explain things.

[jetblst]

Wow.

I just did the full blown two speed trim for pitch as I described. Id never really done this before as it is a bit unrealistic in modern aircraft. BUT it made things a bit fun whilst doing my stall series and emergency decents in my Premier. Rather nice.

I will go back to the one speed. If you desire the single speed trim system, then two position rocker style button would be my thoughts. However if you desire a two speed trim system on one control, the axis is the way to go using the control range feature. Before changing it to trim, I had this set on an axis that is not working too well on my X52 for my heading bug left and right. Worked nice. Time to clean the joystick again.

Hopefully this works for you.

[mslim]

Slim,

Silly question, but you are using the proper format in your parameter section? Probably not, due to my lack of knowledge. Although I have elevator trim working fine by parroting what is in Pete's manual.

Here is what I just did and it works.

Go to your axis assignment in FSUIPC as you know how to do. Go page and work on your rocker axis. Move it so FSUIPC can see it. Go to your "Set up to 10 ranges for action" section. Do I select "Send to FS as Normal Axis" in the "Type of Action Desired" Box?

By default you will be working on "1" Here is the tricky part. Center your axis (Rocker) push down on it and you should see the in and out windows populate with positive and negative numbers. OK I see this.

The From and the To windows will be where you desire your range to be. On my set up my "1" range is From window is -6837 and my To Window is - 387. That determines my range of travel of my axis, for the "1" or FIRST range. Within that AXIS range I want my RUDDER TRIM to move to the RIGHT very slow. SO THEN

CHECK both the UP and the Down box.

In the control sent when range entered select Offset Sword Increment.

IN THE OFFSET box put in x0C04 IN THE PARAMETER box put in 64/16383 This will give you a slower rate of trim.

MAKE SURE YOU CHECK THE BOX THAT SAYS " CONTROL TO REPEAT WHILST IN RANGE" Super important. :) This part I understand since it is similar to the elevator trim values. "64" is the increment and "16383" is the total range.

Now check it. It should move the trim slowly. It does.

Wash rinse repeat for step 2

MY Step 2 or 2nd "2" range goes like this.

2 From = -16384 To = -6837 <-- That number is where I left off on the first range. Its important. Its the start of the second range of the axis. Again check both the up and the down boxes. So the order of the TO & FROM values invert! In Steps 3 & 4 the TO value is the lower number and the FROM value is the higher number and both values in this window are positive values. I would have never figured this out on my own but it is very logical since the middle (ie neutral) is the zero point.

In the "Control sent when range entered" box again, make sure you have "Offset Sword Increment" selected

In the "Offset window again make sure you have x0C04"

In the "Parameter window this time change the 64 to 128. This gives less steps for the trim to travel making the trim travel F A S T E R. So your Parameter window should show 128/16383.

Now do the same for two more ranges on your axis going the other direction. To do this simply make sure you change the Control sent when range entered window to Offset Sword Decrement

and make sure you put in a "-" in front of the 16383 number in the Parameter window. eg 128/-16383.

Again dont forget to check the Control to repeat whist in range box on all of this. LOL I didnt a couple of times and got :angry: at myself. Yes easy to overlook.

NOW,

If none of the above works it might be your axis on the stick itself. It may not be a true axis? I dont know. I did this via my X52. I did not do this on my kids flight stick as he is asleep and if he saw me walking out of his room with his flight stick he'd be up all night. :)

Let me know if this works!

Thanks Jetblst for taking the time to give me this excellent help. This is exactly what I was trying to implement. I couldn't have done it without your assistance.

Kind Regards,

Obie

[jetblst]

Yes! Nice work! Glad you got it working. Kind of hard thing to explain from a non programmer to a non programmer. But looks like we fumbled through it! :)

Send FS to normal axis is a yes. Looks like you have it though! Awesome.

[jetblst]

From a pilot's point of view I can tell you that trimming an aircraft in real flight is more of an artform than it gets credit for. A good CFI will teach his/her students to keep the aircraft in trim at all times. RW pilots are taught from the ground up to fly this way before they EVER see an autopilot. Unfortuneatly SIM pilots pretty much go for the autoflight A LOT and that is natural. But they miss out on what the trim really does, really.

If a pilot really understands this they can do rather remarkable things. Like my CFI could do steep turns in a C172 hands off. That's right. Hands off. She understood trim so well she could do steep turns all day long with just the rudder pedals (of course once established) but she could keep the aircraft in the steep turn using only rudder. Of course she grew up with her dad as a cropduster, she was also a stunt pilot and movie pilot but the fundamentals didnt change. She learned how to use trim early on, rather than the status quo of peops thinking trim is some sort of crutch.

So that is why this has been a great find in my book. Using FSUIPC and the trim facilities alone are much better. The calibration via FSUIPC is remarkable. Plus the many other advantages. But the OFFSETS are where true reality in simming starts to take place INMHO. I find that the settings I have are a lot more, A LOT more acurate and give as much true feel for aircraft trim than do the stock models as they are out of the box. The programming for trim in most models is very bad and unrealistc at best.

Once your stick and rudder skills become honed to the point of being able to trim the aircraft to "hands off" you can ask yourself, who needs an auto pilot.

For example,

If you go to the Caravan. While on an instrument approach, trim for straight and level with 10 degrees of flaps and 1500 pounds of torque. 2 miles out from the FAF or MARKER, you should be at 120 KIAS. All you have to do when you hit the marker is bring your power back to 700 lbs of torque. You will stay on the glide slope in a scary accurate way. If not, you will be A LOT closer to staying on the glideslope flying by hand then you were before. Using trim properly also makes doing timed approaches (LOC or VOR approaches) an absolute piece of cake.

Take care!! ;-)

[mslim]

Couldn't agree more. Former (lapsed) RW pilot here. I was taught to trim out control pressure and not fight the airplane. That, and proper power and pitch settings, make your flying a lot safer and enjoyable.

Thanks again for the invaluable guidance. BTW where did you take your initial flight training? Most of mine was PDK and VNY.

Obie

[jetblst]

University of North Dakota, Center for Aerospace Sciences - Private Commerical, Instrument.

I did my Multi Commercial, CFI, CFII, and MEI in MSP at two flight schools.

I did my type ratings and ATP at Flight Safety and Simuflight. (DA-10, RA-390 and BE-350, 300, 200, C-208B, and PC-12).

That is why FSUIPC is such a draw to me as it lets me finally have control over the sim a whole lot more. I go back to the days of Flight Sim before Microsoft Owned it. Sublogic days. :lol:

Glad I could help!!