Reverse on throttle?

[Agrajag]

Pete,

I just bought a PSS Dash 8 that I'm enjoying and it appears as if I can get it to reverse manually by bringing the thottles all the way back with the prop angle set right.

What's odd is that the reverser seems to be tied to the throttle control and not the prop control which FSUIPC expects it on.

What's the best way to deal with this?

[flypfc]

this is correct the reversers should be tied to the throttles

that is the way it is on real aircraft

[Pete Dowson]

I just bought a PSS Dash 8 that I'm enjoying and it appears as if I can get it to reverse manually by bringing the thottles all the way back with the prop angle set right.

Yes.

What's odd is that the reverser seems to be tied to the throttle control and not the prop control which FSUIPC expects it on.

What's the best way to deal with this?

Sorry, what do you mean, here? If you want to be able to use your throttle lever for reverse, merely map it in FSUIPC to the 4 separate throttles, then calibrate for reverse and an idle centre on the 4-throttles page.

The "reverser" axis facility in FSUIPC is for those folks who want to retain the complete throttle axis movement for forward thrust control, and set reverse throttle separately. The default assignment in FSUIPC for the reverser axis is, in fact, the Mixture axis, but this is not relevant in your case, and anyway you can change that easily enough in the INI file, as described in the Advanced User's guide.

The FSUIPC facilities allow you, the user, to decide what to do with your controls. It is really nothing much to do with the aircraft.

There is usually a reverse setting for propeller pitch on turboprops. FSUIPC allows this to be calibrated too. Perhaps this is confusing you? It is certainly not true that FSUIPC "expects" reverse control to be there. It doesn't care where or how you want to assign and calibrate your controls.

Regards,

Pete

[Agrajag]

I guess I'm just confused about finding that when I attempted to set the limits of the control, FSUIPC wasn't reading the throttle. It was reading the mixture control.

I wondered if perhaps I did this. I have reverse setup and working in the King Air 350 including a nice dead zone that I've grown accustomed to but, correct me if I'm wrong, in the King Air that control is on the mixture control. Thus, I started wondering if there is a way to have it work on all planes based on the setup of each plane or if setting it for the Dash meant that I had to screw it up for the King Air, etc.

I do admit it, this is the one area of FSUIPC that I just personally have a tough time grasping.

I just hopped into the sim and realize a correction is needed. In the King Air I have FEATHER setup and working great. Reverse, over on the throttle, still is not setup right there. I just don't want to make changes that will mess up the King Air's Feather settings.

First thing I've done is to set the FSUIPC.INI section for ReverserControl=65765 which gets it on the throttle. Now it should just be a case of setting the limits. However, so far it's not working like Prop Mixture did where I had the 3 Set buttons and just set where I wanted it to feature, then idle, then beyond. Here I either get throttle control or reverse control but not both. I'll figure it out.

[Pete Dowson]

I guess I'm just confused about finding that when I attempted to set the limits of the control, FSUIPC wasn't reading the throttle. It was reading the mixture control.

I don't understand what you mean here. If you are operating the throttle axis then FSUIPC will see it in the throttle section. If you operate a mixture axis it will see it in the mixture section UNLESS you opt to "Set" the Reverser, in which case the mixture axis will operate the reverser. Even that can be changed by editing the INI file first.

I wondered if perhaps I did this. I have reverse setup and working in the King Air 350 including a nice dead zone that I've grown accustomed to but, correct me if I'm wrong, in the King Air that control is on the mixture control.

No. What "control" is it that you think is on the mixture control? If you've calibrated a reverser there and not changed the INI file defaults, then, yes, FSUIPC uses the mixture input. It was chosen because that's not used on jets. However, the King Air is a turboprop, not jet or turboject -- you will need the mixture control to control the mixture!

You need to calibrate reverse zones on the throttle and prop axes, not add a separate reversing lever -- look at the throttle quadrant in FS's own King Air, see the reverse zones. It is those you want to be able to use. The separate reverser axis input supported by FSUIPC is for jets which do have separate reversers.

Thus, I started wondering if there is a way to have it work on all planes based on the setup of each plane or if setting it for the Dash meant that I had to screw it up for the King Air, etc.

Sorry, I am really at a loss to know what you've done. I suggest you do two things:

(a) make sure you get the latest version (3.212), as version 3.21 had some problems with joystick calibration in any case

(b) delete the entire joystick calibration section in your FSUIPC.INI before loading FS, the start again from scratch.

I do admit it, this is the one area of FSUIPC that I just personally have a tough time grasping.

What's the problem you have with the documentation, please?

If you are not flying a jet, it is best to completely forget the reverser axis. You don't need it, shouldn't be using it.

If you want reverse zones on the throttle and/or prop axes, follow the documentation -- in FSUIPC to obtain a reverse zone you have to use the individual engine controls, not the all-engine ones. With single axis inputs you use the facility to Map the single axis to the 4 separate ones. This is explained.

First thing I've done is to set the FSUIPC.INI section for ReverserControl=65765 which gets it on the throttle.

Ouch! That is completely wrong. It takes away the throttle axis for normal use then! The whole point of the separate reverser axis facility is for when you want to use a separate reverser axis. If you want to use the SAME axis you have to calibrate a reversing zone on it!

The facilities for calibrating throttles with reverse zones has been in FSUIPC for about 4 years, and has been used successfully by many folks simply following the documentation. I cannot understand how you are so misconstruing everything. Please forget ENTIRELY all about the separate reverser axis -- if you have no spare separate axis to assign to it it is of absolutely no use to you whatsoever!

Regards,

Pete

[Agrajag]

On the first item, I just meant that since the Reverser is below the throttle on all the planes I use (graphically within the sim) I assumed that when I went in to set the reverser that it would be tied to the throttle axis, not the mixture axis.

As far as the problem with the documentation, it's not your fault. It's just one of those things I read over several times and it just doesn't sink in. It's my fault.

Later in your reply I started to get it. All this is for a separate reverser axis control. I guess what I'm looking to do is to be able to get my throttle to work like my mixture does in the King Air. In the King Air I've set up the mixture so that when I move it nearly all the way to the bottom, it goes into a dead zone and then into the Feather area. That, in fact, is the main reason I was glad to send you my money. That alone was worth it to me.

So now I thought there would be an FSUIPC screen just like that for the throttle so that when I get near the bottom of the throttle it will go into a dead zone and then, when I push it all the way down, it'll go into the Reverse section. Both the King Air and the Dash 8 have a Reverse at the bottom of the Throttle graphic that I simply cannot reach without manually grabbing them with the mouse and moving the levers into the Reverse section.

However, on Page 1 of 7 under Throttle, when I hit Set, there is no ability to set 3 zones as I did with mixture. There are just two zones. In other words, on Page 5 there's a Feather/Min/Max setup. I guess what I was hoping to see for throttle when I hit Set was Reverse/Min/Max. Does that make any more sense?

[Pete Dowson]

On the first item, I just meant that since the Reverser is below the throttle on all the planes I use (graphically within the sim) I assumed that when I went in to set the reverser that it would be tied to the throttle axis, not the mixture axis.

The King Air, to take an example, has no separate reversers -- they are simply the zone on the throttle below the "idle" position. On the real things there is a notch which prevents accidental reverse being engaged when you pull the levers back.

The reverser levers on jets such as the 737 and 747 are actually separate levers which only become accessible when the thrust levers are pulled back to idle. To simulate this I provided a way of using a separate axis, assuming you have one spare.

With most of the extra axes supported by FSUIPC (but not by FS itself) -- the rudder and aileron trim, the flaps and the cowl flaps -- I don't assign a "spare axis" by default, because it is impossible to tell what might be spare. However, in the case of the reverser axis, because it really is only applicable to jets, and because jets don't need a mixture axis, and because the reverser facility was in high demand, I assigned the mixture axis by default for jets.

Sorry if this confuses you. For most it made things easier, that's all. It saved having to work out an axis control number and edit the INI file for those who simply wanted to add a reverser lever to their jets and had, for instance, a CH USB yoke with a mixture axis going spare on jets.

I guess what I'm looking to do is to be able to get my throttle to work like my mixture does in the King Air. In the King Air I've set up the mixture so that when I move it nearly all the way to the bottom, it goes into a dead zone and then into the Feather area.

It's odd that you use the term "feather" with reference to the mixture axis -- feathering is what you do with the props. It is even the word used for the minimum Prop setting in the Options (the values set are for "Feather", "Min" and "Max").

The Mixtures page allows you to set "Min", "Idle" and "Max". These terms are those I was advised as correct by turboprop fliers.

Anyway, assuming you are mixing up mixture and prop settings, you can do exactly the same to get a reverse zone on the throttles. The three values you set are named "Reverse", "Idle" and "Max". Isn't this clear enough?

Take a look through the assorted pages in the Joysticks section. Try pressing "Set" in each one (you can't do any harm -- just press "Reset" afterwards and you are back to where you were, or simple cancel or ESCape from the options altogether for no changes at all).

All three axis treatments are the same inside FSUIPC -- it's actually all the same code!

So now I thought there would be an FSUIPC screen just like that for the throttle so that when I get near the bottom of the throttle it will go into a dead zone and then, when I push it all the way down, it'll go into the Reverse section.

Yes, there is. It is page 3. You must have gone past it to set your Mixture (or more probably Props) on the following two pages.

As I said, with a single all-engine throttle you get to use the 4 separate throttles page by mapping the single one -- there's a checkbox for that. Don't blame me for this method, by the way. In their wisdom Microsoft didn't provide a reverse range on any of the all-engine controls, but did on all the individual engine controls.

However, on Page 1 of 7 under Throttle, when I hit Set, there is no ability to set 3 zones as I did with mixture.

There are just two zones. In other words, on Page 5 there's a Feather/Min/Max setup. I guess what I was hoping to see for throttle when I hit Set was Reverse/Min/Max. Does that make any more sense?

Pages 3 4 and 5 provide the full range with reverse etc. The single all-engine controls do NOT offer reverse, or feather -- look at the single all-engine Mixture and Prop settings (page 2) for example. You are really confusing yourself by not looking at this stuff and reading about it.

Please, please, please check the documentation, the bit that says:

"If you have a single throttle control and you’d like to have an idle and reverse zone on this, then in the throttle part of page 1 select the “Map to 4 throttles” option. Then turn to page 3 of 6 and calibrate your throttle using the throttle 1 axis. The other three will match exactly. Choose the minimum (full reverse) and maximum (full forward) in the usual way, but then make a centre ‘idle’ zone wherever you want it on your lever’s movement—close to a détente or other stop if you have one."

Did you not see this at all? It is there, in the Joysticks section, and has been for years. I thought I also pointed out the method to use in a previous message in this thread. :(

Regards

Pete

[Agrajag]

It saved having to work out an axis control number and edit the INI file for those who simply wanted to add a reverser lever to their jets and had, for instance, a CH USB yoke with a mixture axis going spare on jets.

Okay, so when I DO go and add CH Product new Throttle Quadrant, then I'll have a spare axis to dedicate this to.

It's odd that you use the term "feather" with reference to the mixture axis -- feathering is what you do with the props. It is even the word used for the minimum Prop setting in the Options (the values set are for "Feather", "Min" and "Max").

You are correct. I used the incorrect term there. It is the prop setting I'm talking about.

Anyway, assuming you are mixing up mixture and prop settings, you can do exactly the same to get a reverse zone on the throttles. The three values you set are named "Reverse", "Idle" and "Max". Isn't this clear enough?

Believe it or not, but I'm actually a rather sharp fellow in general but somehow I've just endlessly tripped over this issue. Thanks for not losing it on me! I know I've been annoying with this.

Yes, there is. It is page 3. You must have gone past it to set your Mixture (or more probably Props) on the following two pages.

Now that I see it, it's simple. I should have figured that out. I know what I did. I did the typical building of a bridge in the middle of a field as they say. I saw the Reverser section and got STUCK on it to the exclusion of other possibilities. It now works just like it should of course. And, further, I see the danger as on landing, without a detent it's going to be a bit difficult to cut the engines without going into reverse. It'd almost be better to assign this to a button! Almost.

"If you have a single throttle control and you’d like to have an idle and reverse zone on this, then in the throttle part of page 1 select the “Map to 4 throttles” option.

This is a case where I decided to employ the use of RSPOTFM otherwise known as "Read Select Parts Of......TFM". I jumped around reading up on reversers and such. And you'll have to trust me when I tell you that I've probably read your docs more than most. I just don't live in Flight Sim so I tend to have to go back all the time to touch up on things and that can get confusing.

Again, I apologize for putting you through all that. I knew the software could do it, knew the problem was me but still needed to get a good swift kick in the backside because I just kept getting myself wedged further and further into that same corner.

I'll have to run into you somewhere to pick up a round for you. If I do, I promise not to try and set my own axis on the way to paying for the round.

[Pete Dowson]

I see the danger as on landing, without a detent it's going to be a bit difficult to cut the engines without going into reverse.

The advice I've given to others trying to place a reverse zone on a normal throttle axis is to glue a small piece of soft rubber or similar onto the slot as a kind of "gate" -- not stopping you pulling back, but just something you can feel is there so you know not to pull back further.

Again, I apologize for putting you through all that.

No problem, just glad the penny dropped eventually! :)

Regards,

Pete

[Agrajag]

The advice I've given to others trying to place a reverse zone on a normal throttle axis is to glue a small piece of soft rubber or similar onto the slot as a kind of "gate" -- not stopping you pulling back, but just something you can feel is there so you know not to pull back further.

I've been thinking about exactly that when I added Feather support on the prop (hurray, I typed that right this time) axis.

What sort of rubber do you think would work well? I was thinking about a rubberband but then I didn't think it would adhere well and it would require constant pressure when I want it all the way down. I kept thinking you almost need two pieces, like your gate so that the control could open the gate but then I had real doubts you'd feel it after a very short time.

Kinda surprising that CH didn't think of it but then again, where would they put them to make everyone happy. Those that don't use it would be annoyed at the detent.

[Pete Dowson]

What sort of rubber do you think would work well? I was thinking about a rubberband but then I didn't think it would adhere well and it would require constant pressure when I want it all the way down. I kept thinking you almost need two pieces, like your gate so that the control could open the gate but then I had real doubts you'd feel it after a very short time.

I've not really tried this (I use PFC throttle quadrants -- the turboprop ones have gates and you have to push the lever sideways to get them below these).

However, I would have thought you'd need something harder than rubber bands. I would get a softish pencil eraser and experiment cutting different pieces -- something from the rounded corners might be best. You could cut a groove in the non-lever-contact side to make it easier to glue firmly on the edge of the slot.

Another way would be to actually screw some sort of hinged gate across which you have to move out of the way -- but that's a bit of an engineering job and presupposes enough room and a good strong (metal?) housing.

Regards,

Pete

[Agrajag]

The PFC quadrants look pretty nice. I like the turbo prop one. I might have to give them a look, though I would really want full USB support, meaning XP see it as a valid USB device and Properties can show all the buttons and such. My guess is this is a serial device at heart.

In fact, there's a Cirrus II panel on eBay that was at $100 and last I left it was $250. It's used and the pictures don't show much detail except that it has no throttles and the yoke is the older Jet model but it was worth a shot.

[Pete Dowson]

I would really want full USB support, meaning XP see it as a valid USB device and Properties can show all the buttons and such.

Why? Don't you think my driver for FS is good enough, or is it because you want to use this with games as well as serious simming? :wink:

My guess is this is a serial device at heart.

Well, the "S" in "USB" means "Serial", so of course it is. But in addition the 9-pin COM port is RS232-type serial and seen as a COMx device in Windows, and the USB port is handled by a driver which also makes it look like a COMx device. Makes life a lot easier for us programmers! This is not unusual for all sorts of devices -- I think you'll find PDA cradle links, though now almost universally USB, actually use the same technique.

In fact, there's a Cirrus II panel on eBay that was at $100 and last I left it was $250. It's used and the pictures don't show much detail except that it has no throttles

Well the Cirrus II has built-in throttles, the standard 6 linear pots with driving rods -- you mean there were no lever sets supplied? They are mechanical devices which bolt on. Odd that they'd not include at least one.

Regards,

Pete

[Agrajag]

I'm sure your drivers would be great but, in the unlikely even that tomorrow a great flight sim came out that your drivers didn't support, I wouldn't want to find myself with a single-product solution IF possible, but you make a very compelling argument.

And on the Cirrus II, it looked like the throttle quadrant was somehow removed. Do a search on eBay and you'll see the pictures. There's only one up there. It's just a big flat area with no bolts and no quadrant. But hey, if I could have gotten it for a few hundred dollars it would've been worth spending the extra for the quadrant to add back to it. Just no telling what kind of shape this was in or what else might be wrong.

[Pete Dowson]

... in the unlikely even that tomorrow a great flight sim came out that your drivers didn't support, I wouldn't want to find myself with a single-product solution ...

Yes, I can understand that. In my case I've been well and truly tied into MSFS for many years -- right back to FS4 in fact when I did my first FS "hack" to get my EPIC fully working with it. If MS ever gets fed up with FS and stops developing it, I will have almost a garageful of junk! :) :? :o

Regards,

Pete