Mixture Axes: Can NOT set Mixture Values from 50% to 75%!

[jahman]

Howdy!

Newby here, with documentation read (and mostly understood), but likely dealing with some conceptual difficulties.

Problem:

FSUIPC4 "4 of 11: Separate Micture Controls" OUT values (for "Mixture(n)" control) jump from 8192 to 12320.

This is OK for TurboProps, but for Piston Engines means I can not set mixture values between 50% and 75%! Argh! :x

This "50% to 75% jump" occurs regardless of:

1. Detent Value calibrated in CH Control Manager

2. Type of Aircraft (TurboProp vs. Piston)

3. Maker of Aircraft (Microsoft FSX or Friendly Panels)

4. "Idle" Settings in FSUIPC4 Joystick Calibration ("4 of 11: Separate Micture Controls" Tab).

Environment:

Running: FSX and FSUIPC v. 4.205, reading all axes in "Direct" (not Raw!) mode.

With: CH Products Yoke, Pro Pedals, Throttle Quadrant and Control Manager.

Also: GoFlight MCP-PRO and EFIS Modules

FSX: Joysticks disabled, no axes assigned, no buttons assigned (all assigned in FSUIPC4).

Likely this has been encountered by others...

Looking forward to your wisdom and insights :-)

Cheers,

Andrew.

[peterhayes]

Hi Andrew

A few questions:

Are you running CHCM in "mapped" or "Direct Mode"?

Are your sensitivities full right and null zone full left (for all 6 axes) in the sim?

Have you calibrated in Windows?

Have you read cmnote02.zip by Bob Church at http://www.stickworks.com (explains difference between direct/mapped mode and setting up in FSIPC)?

May Help

PeterH

F9XBPD

[jahman]

Hi Andrew

Hi again, Peter! :D

A few questions: Are you running CHCM in "mapped" or "Direct Mode"?

Direct Mode

Are your sensitivities full right and null zone full left (for all 6 axes) in the sim?

- I have removed ALL assignments (joystick, buttons) from FSX.

- Joysticks ARE enabled in FSX

- Sensitivities are set to ZERO by FSX (but all axes work fine anyway, except for Mixture)

Have you calibrated in Windows?

No, but I have calibrated all in CHCM with (Min, Detent, Max) = (0, 240, 255).

Have you read cmnote02.zip by Bob Church at http://www.stickworks.com (explains difference between direct/mapped mode and setting up in FSIPC)? May Help

I have read them all now (and would have saved me quite some time...) and after reading FSXCTLS2 I´m even more convinced in my quest for banning FSX from having any say in configuring my sim hardware! :twisted:

The Mixture axes work OK for TurboProps because the missing 50% to 75% mixture range doesn´t matter. But with Pistons where I gradually have to lean-out the mixture (100% down to 20%) that missing 50% to 75% mixture range is a big problem (especially when ATC clears me to climb and maintain FL220... in a Beech Baron! :shock: ).

FSUIPC4 "IN" values (post CHCM, I suppose) move smoothly along the range (-16384, 16383), while the corresponding FSUIPC "OUT" values move smoothly in the range (0, 8192) and then again in the range (12320, 16384). The missing/unreachable OUT values are in the range (8192, 12320) (exclusive).

My guess is maybe I´ve done something for FSUIPC to think I´m flying a TurboProp as the OUT value of 8192 is "Idle" in the TurboProp context. Yet for Pistons 8192 is not a magic number: Speaking of "Idle" in the context of Mixture doesn´t seem quite right. Only "Rich" and "Lean" are relevant to a Mixture lever, while "Low Idle" and "High Idle" would be appropriate for a "Condition" lever.

Finally, for both Pistons and TurboProps the Mixture levers move along 100% of their range, with the FSX ToolTip showing 0% and 100% at either extreme (in Flriendly Panels´ friendly tooltips with parameter values). It´s just that the 50% to 75% (exclusive) are not reachable: You can actually see the on-Screen Mixture levers jump!

In the FSUIPC4 documentation set I see that the control MIXTUREn_SET has these key values:

- Cut-Off: 0

- Idle: +8192

- Rich: +16384

... and 8192 is exactly where my "jump" happens. A coincidence?

Kind regards,

Andrew.

PS: What is "F9XBPD"?

[Pete Dowson]

Separate Micture Controls" OUT values (for "Mixture(n)" control) jump from 8192 to 12320.

Okay. I've checked anyway, using my own primitive joystick (a game pad actually).

It seems this has ALWAYS been the case, on all versions of FSUIPC, no matter how assigned, for many years.

The problem I have now is that, from the coding, it looks deliberate. i.e. not a bug!

But why? You said "this is OK for TurboProps", but why? There aren't many turboprops in FS (default), but they all seem to have smooth mixture values between 8k and 12k. So I'm a bit at a loss to know why it is programmed like this in the first place -- it is lost in the mists of time.

Likely this has been encountered by others...

Well, you'd think so, wouldn't you? Especially since it has always been like this. Someone may have noticed but certainly you are the first to bother to mention it too me.

I am a little worried that, if I "correct" it, I will mess someone else up. If only I could understand or remember the reason for it.

Regards

Pete

[jahman]

I am a little worried that, if I "correct" it, I will mess someone else up. If only I could understand or remember the reason for it.

Indeed, it is important not to mess-up other user instalations: There could be hell to pay, and rightly so!

This said, may I suggest a couple alternatives?

1. Automatic Setting

Optimally (and I am leaping way ahead of my knowledge of FSX/FSUIPC4), from within FSUIPC4 perhaps it is possible to read the current aircraft engine type and then:

IF (ENGINE_TYPE (TURBOPROP | JET) )

- TRUE, then use "standard" FSUIPC4 Mixture output (Default); /* TURBOPROP | JET */

- FALSE, then use Linear Mixture output (no jump); /* PISTON | GLIDERS */

ENDIF;

2. Manual Setting

With a "Continuous Output" checkbox added to the Mixtures Tab,

IF NOT (CHECKBOX (Continuous_Output) )

- TRUE, then use "standard" FSUIPC4 Mixture output (Default); /* TURBOPROP | JET */

- FALSE, then use Linear Mixture output (no jump); /* PISTON | GLIDERS */

ENDIF;

Kind regards,

Andrew.

[Pete Dowson]

This said, may I suggest a couple alternatives?

1. Automatic Setting

Optimally (and I am leaping way ahead of my knowledge of FSX/FSUIPC4), from within FSUIPC4 perhaps it is possible to read the current aircraft engine type and then:

IF (ENGINE_TYPE (TURBOPROP | JET) )

- TRUE, then use "standard" FSUIPC4 Mixture output (Default); /* TURBOPROP | JET */

- FALSE, then use Linear Mixture output (no jump); /* PISTON | GLIDERS */

ENDIF;

Yes, buthere's the problem. WHAT, if any, turboprops need this jump? The ones supplied with FS don't, evidently. This is why I am at a loss to understand why the jump is there in the first place. You said it was okay for turboprops -- but why? Where have you found this to be so?

Jets are okay. There's no mixture control as such -- it operates the idle/cutoff switches and they are either on or off.

2. Manual Setting

With a "Continuous Output" checkbox added to the Mixtures Tab,

That's what I was thinking. But I would still like to know why there's a jump in the first place. Maybe it was by request, but if so it was for an aircraft I cannot seem to identify.

Regards

Pete

[Frank.O]

Hi Pete,

You said it was okay for turboprops -- but why?

it may be because on turboprops (the King Air for instance, don't know whether or not it's the same on all) the condition levers only have three useful settings: cut off, ground idle and flight idle.

Regards,

Frank

[Pete Dowson]

it may be because on turboprops (the King Air for instance, don't know whether or not it's the same on all) the condition levers only have three useful settings: cut off, ground idle and flight idle.

But the throttle quadrant mixture levers in the FS King Air do slide continuously, not jump, if manipulated by mouse or normal FS controls. If that is the case, I don't understand why I built a jump in at all.

Regards

Pete

[jahman]

But the throttle quadrant mixture levers in the FS King Air do slide continuously, not jump, if manipulated by mouse or normal FS controls. If that is the case, I don't understand why I built a jump in at all.

Indeed, but only three values are significant, as Frank mentioned. Consider also you seem to not have received any complaints about "jumpy mixtures" for Microsoft turboprops.

So perhaps an adequate compromise causing the least disturbance might be to preserve "jumpy mixtures" for turboprops and jets, while allowing smooth mixtures for pistons and gliders (might sport engines).

Kind regards,

Andrew.

[Pete Dowson]

Indeed, but only three values are significant, as Frank mentioned. Consider also you seem to not have received any complaints about "jumpy mixtures" for Microsoft turboprops.

Well, I would tend to ascribe that to the likely fact that very few folks have enough joystick axes to assign multiple throttles, prop pitch controls and mixture levers. When there's only one the generic mixture lever is used for all engines, and that has no "idle" detente setting.

If there only three settings, why are the levers showing continuous smooth changes with associated mixture values?

Regards

Pete

[jahman]

If there only three settings, why are the levers showing continuous smooth changes with associated mixture values?

Pete,

Although many mixture settings are possible, only three have meaning for turboprops: Idle Cutoff, Low Idle, and High Idle.

The situation is similar to assigning an axis to control flap extensions: Although continuous settings would be possible, only 3 would be significant (for the King Air).

Kind regards,

Andrew.

[Pete Dowson]

[

Although many mixture settings are possible, only three have meaning for turboprops: Idle Cutoff, Low Idle, and High Idle

Yes, that is what I understood from earlier in the thread. This is why I don't understand why the levers aren't notched just for those. And why has the "high idle" got a range of 12k to 16k (ie 25% of the available range) according to the way FSUIPC is programmed? Why not just 0, 8k and 16k?

The situation is similar to assigning an axis to control flap extensions: Although continuous settings would be possible, only 3 would be significant (for the King Air).

Ah, but the flaps are notched and you cannot actually set intervening values -- the flaps don't stay at any intermediate points, unlike the King Air's mixture lever and values. There are not really comparable, at least as implemented in FS.

I'm not arguing about whether to change FSUIPC or not, I am only at a loss to understand (a) why I did what I did, and (b) why this hasn't already looked anomalous to someone even in the King Air.

I mean, this isn't new, even to FS2004. It would have been like the way it is now since FS2000, some 7 years ago.

Regards

Pete

[peterhayes]

Andrew

This may be totally stupid but may be worth a try. Why not set the mixture axes in FSX and NOT in FSUIPC. Calibrate the mixture levers in Windows (you have the CHCM installed) but not in FSUIPC and then see what sort of response you get in FSX with various types of planes? Set the sensistivity and null zone as I suggested earlier. This should give you a reference point to see if the behaviour is different to FSUIPC but its what you want. I did this and got a very smooth response in FSX with the levers in the VC not having the "jump".

Regards

PeterH

F9XBPD (email me for an explanation)

[jahman]

Why not set the mixture axes in FSX and NOT in FSUIPC.

Indeed!

Except my Holy Grail is not dealing with FSX at all for control configuration and keep all centralized in FSUIPC with it´s wonderful "per aircraft" configuration and 2 --> 4 engine mappings.

Heck, I can really live with the jump in the mixture (at least as the Baron is concerned) especially now that I now what´s invovled (and while FSX doesn´t track engine wear due to excessive CHT...).

Kind regards,

Andrew.

[peterhayes]

Andrew

Good points!!

PeterH

[Pete Dowson]

Heck, I can really live with the jump in the mixture (at least as the Baron is concerned) especially now that I now what´s invovled (and while FSX doesn´t track engine wear due to excessive CHT...).

I'll be fixing the "jump" in any case (making it optional) in an update shortly. Just got a couple of other things to do as well. Hope to make a little interim update, for both FSUIPC3 and FSUIPC4 before Christmas.

Regards

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

I'll be fixing the "jump" in any case (making it optional) in an update shortly.

After getting more deeply into the FSUIPC code on this I find that it really genuinely is a BUG! It is an error in the routine which checks whether to apply a "slope". Obviously slopes are not relevant to these axes, but the off-centre axis nevertheless resulted in the linear "slope" getting the output value wrong, mapping the whole upper portion to the 12k - 16k range.

So, despite all the justification here for the jump to be there on turboprops, I am going to fix the error instead, making it a continuous axis for all purposes. as far as I can see this matches all the aircraft I've found and really canot do any harm.

This fix will be in interim updates 4.207 and 3.767, this week. It will also then not even offer the slope option for 'centred' mixture axes

Regards

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

This fix will be in interim updates 4.207 and 3.767, this week. It will also then not even offer the slope option for 'centred' mixture axes

Okay. Both of these are now available in the Download announcements above.

Regards

Pete

[jahman]

Good news, Pete! You rock! :D

Cheers,

Andrew.