Wind gusts

[plpazodo]

Hello,

I have FSX SP2 and experiencing something weird with wind gusts, not sure if this has always happened or if this has been asked in previous posts.

Yesterday I was flying to KPMP and reported winds were from 090 at 16k gusting to 22k.

When pressing shift-z on FSX at ground level I could only see winds from 090 at 16k to 17k and not gusting to 22k , I just place a tick on "enable when airborne" under FSUIPC wind smoothing options and it seems to do the trick on ground winds gusting ok to 22k.

Of course after lift-off it will again override gusts and they stuck between 16k to 17k.

Is this a normal behaviour when using FSUIPC wind smoothing option? What can be done to fix this? I would like to have reported gusts after lift off.

I'm using ASE with latest SP, standard weather depiction (also tested with smooth cloud transition) with no difference.

I'm also using the latest FSUIPC module.

Thanks

[Pete Dowson]

When pressing shift-z on FSX at ground level I could only see winds from 090 at 16k to 17k and not gusting to 22k , I just place a tick on "enable when airborne" under FSUIPC wind smoothing options and it seems to do the trick on ground winds gusting ok to 22k.

Of course after lift-off it will again override gusts and they stuck between 16k to 17k.

Is this a normal behaviour when using FSUIPC wind smoothing option? What can be done to fix this? I would like to have reported gusts after lift off.

There's nothing FSUIPC does about gusts, neither to generate nor prevent. I'd need a lot for information to investigate this, please - actual FSUIPC version number, and the INI file.

I'm using ASE with latest SP, standard weather depiction (also tested with smooth cloud transition) with no difference.

Do you suppress FSUIPC's wind turbulence? If not, try it. You shouldn't need it in any case with ASE.

I'm also using the latest FSUIPC module.

Everyone says that, but it is meaningless. What is the latest? To most folks it's the last one they saw. I always need the actual version number, which isn't hard to find. It is on screen in the options, in the log, in the DLL properties.

Pete

]

[plpazodo]

Hello Pete

I have latest v4.853 downloaded yesterday and this is my INI file:

[General]

UpdatedByVersion=4853

History=JYYRN7B7FJ8YW0UWI4YJI

MouseWheelTrim=No

MouseWheelTrimSpeed=1

JoystickTimeout=20

PollGFTQ6=Yes

BlankDisplays=No

FixControlAccel=No

FixMachSpeedBug=No

VisibilityOptions=No

OneCloudLayer=No

CloudTurbulence=No

CloudIcing=No

GenerateCirrus=No

SuppressCloudTurbulence=No

MaxIce=3

MinIce=-4

UpperWindGusts=No

SuppressWindTurbulence=No

SuppressWindVariance=No

WindTurbulence=No

TurbulenceRate=1.0,5.0

TurbulenceDivisor=20,20,40,40

SuppressAllGusts=No

MaxSurfaceWind=0

WindLimitLevel=200

WindDiscardLevel=400

WindAjustAltitude=No

WindAjustAltitudeBy=2000

SmoothBySimTime=No

WindSmoothing=Yes

WindSmoothness=1

WindSmoothAirborneOnly=No

PressureSmoothness=8

TemperatureSmoothness=25

DisconnTrimForAP=No

ZeroElevForAPAlt=No

ThrottleSyncAll=No

WhiteMessages=No

ShowPMcontrols=No

SpoilerIncrement=512

MagicBattery=No

RudderSpikeRemoval=No

ElevatorSpikeRemoval=No

AileronSpikeRemoval=No

ReversedElevatorTrim=No

ClockSync=No

ClockSyncMins=5

ClearWeatherDynamics=No

OwnWeatherChanges=No

TimeForSelect=4

LoadFlightMenu=No

LoadPlanMenu=No

PauseAfterCrash=No

BrakeReleaseThreshold=75

SaveDataWithFlights=No

ZapSound=firework

ShortAircraftNameOk=Substring

UseProfiles=Yes

TCASid=Flight

TCASrange=40

AxisCalibration=No

DirectAxesToCalibs=No

ShowMultilineWindow=Yes

SuppressSingleline=Yes

SuppressMultilineFS=No

AxisIntercepts=No

DontResetAxes=No

GetNearestAirports=Yes

WeatherReadFactor=1

WeatherRewriteSeconds=1

CustomWeatherModify=No

SimConnectStallTime=1

LuaRerunDelay=66

Console=No

InitDelayDevicesToo=No

MouseWheelMove=No

DeleteVehiclesForAES=Yes

AutoScanDevices=Yes

EnableMouseLook=No

AxesWrongRange=No

InitDelay=0

OOMcheck=Yes

FSVersionUsed="Microsoft Flight Simulator X",10.0.61472.0

SimConnectUsed=10.0.61259.0

I have not tried supressing wind turbulence, but could check anyways.

Thanks

[Pete Dowson]

I have latest v4.853 downloaded yesterday and this is my INI file:

Try changing

UpperWindGusts=No

to 'Yes'.

This defaults to No because gusty winds above the surface layer aren't realistic.

Meanwhile, I've checked what FSUIPC4 does with the smoothing and it is certainly designed to allow the wind to vary between the base speed and the upper gust speed, unless "SuppressAllGusts" is set to 'Yes', and except in upper winds when "UppperWindGusts" is set to 'No'. And I must admit I've seen it vary so when on or near he ground.

I'll run some tests, though, over the weekend. But so I can check with the weather conditions in which you are experiencing this problem, could you save the flight at the time, and Zip up the FLT, FSSAVE and WX files and send to me at petedowson@btconnect.com, please?

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

I'll run some tests, though, over the weekend.

I managed to fit in a series of tests today. I have found a flaw in the way FSUIPC's wind smoothing works, which would probably explain your observations..

What it currently does is smooth both wind speed and wind direction if either of them change. When gusts are present it seems there can be a small variation in the wind direction too, and this is causing both speed and direction to be smoothed! I haven't noticed this before, and I'm not sure why. but it isn't a good design, so i am changing it now to smooth speed and/or direction according to which one is exceeding the set change speeds. This will alllow gusts to vary the wind speed no matter what happens to the direction.

Thank you very much for pointing this out. It is the first change in the Wind Smoothing for FSX in six years! I'm amazed it has taken so long!

Please look out for version 4.855 which I shall upload to the Download Links subforum later today.

Regards

Pete

[plpazodo]

Hello Pete,

That is correct I appreciate a small variation in wind direction and speed when gusts are present.

I will look for 4.855 later on today, after this new release do I need to set "UpperWindGusts=yes" as you suggested?

What about your previous suggestion "SuppressWindTurbulence=Yes"?

Thanks a lot for your quick support on this!

Rgds,

Pedro

[Pete Dowson]

I will look for 4.855 later on today,

It's up now.

after this new release do I need to set "UpperWindGusts=yes" as you suggested?

No, unless you really want gusts in upper winds.

What about your previous suggestion "SuppressWindTurbulence=Yes"?

That was only a suggestion to see if the turbulence coontrol was interfering with the gusts computations, but now I worked out what is going on it is irrelevant, a separate and independent option.

Regards

Pete

[plpazodo]

Hello Pete,

Just did an small test but the issue is still there, there is an small variation on wind direction but no gusts

Testing was done at KAUH with reported winds 20010G15KT.

If selecting "SuppressWindTurbulence=Yes" it works like previous v4.853 but of course dont get any turbulence at all.

This is my updated INI:

[General]

UpdatedByVersion=4855

History=PGF05PTOO1YE2SCF1NH2M

MouseWheelTrim=No

MouseWheelTrimSpeed=1

JoystickTimeout=20

PollGFTQ6=Yes

BlankDisplays=No

FixControlAccel=No

FixMachSpeedBug=No

VisibilityOptions=No

OneCloudLayer=No

CloudTurbulence=No

CloudIcing=No

GenerateCirrus=No

SuppressCloudTurbulence=No

MaxIce=3

MinIce=-4

UpperWindGusts=No

SuppressWindTurbulence=No

SuppressWindVariance=No

WindTurbulence=No

TurbulenceRate=1.0,5.0

TurbulenceDivisor=20,20,40,40

SuppressAllGusts=No

MaxSurfaceWind=0

WindLimitLevel=200

WindDiscardLevel=400

WindAjustAltitude=No

WindAjustAltitudeBy=2000

SmoothBySimTime=No

WindSmoothing=Yes

WindSmoothness=3

WindSmoothAirborneOnly=No

PressureSmoothness=8

TemperatureSmoothness=25

DisconnTrimForAP=No

ZeroElevForAPAlt=No

ThrottleSyncAll=No

WhiteMessages=No

ShowPMcontrols=No

SpoilerIncrement=512

MagicBattery=No

RudderSpikeRemoval=No

ElevatorSpikeRemoval=No

AileronSpikeRemoval=No

ReversedElevatorTrim=No

ClockSync=No

ClockSyncMins=5

ClearWeatherDynamics=No

OwnWeatherChanges=No

TimeForSelect=4

LoadFlightMenu=No

LoadPlanMenu=No

PauseAfterCrash=No

BrakeReleaseThreshold=75

Hope you can help

Rgds

Pedro

[Pete Dowson]

Just did an small test but the issue is still there, there is an small variation on wind direction but no gusts

It is working fine here. Tested with weather set via FS's menus.

Testing was done at KAUH with reported winds 20010G15KT.

When winds are 10-15 you'll only see small changes in any case unless you change FSX.CFG values to make more extreme shifts. I tested with 25 gusting to 50 and ir was varying rapidly up and down mostly between 27 and 47. It would only occasionally reach the extremes because it follows a normal or poisson distribution.

If selecting "SuppressWindTurbulence=Yes" it works like previous v4.853 but of course dont get any turbulence at all.

Er , turbulence wasn't on the agenda last time and you actually specifically said

I have not tried supressing wind turbulence, but could check anyways.

So, are you saying there was turbulence too and by suppressing it you got correct gusts? I'm now confused about what you are doing and why your tests now are so different from before? Please clarify.

[LATER]

Ignoring the confusion at present with turbulence, I've done a comparison of the wind gust behaviour with FSUIPC smoothing enabled and without, and there is a difference in the rapidity of the changes. FS's normal gusting appears to be more like severe turbulence, and the changes are drastic and rapid. Gusts aren't really like like in real life, the speed goes up and down but not immediately by 5 orr 10 knots as I see it doing here. I think the way it is constrained by FSUIPC's smoothing is more realistic.

At present I'm not sure where the difference arises in the code, except that it appears to be a deliberate implementation. The code is now six years old and is very complex and mostly forgotten, and I'm not sure that I want to fiddle with it very much. There are lots of implications about how it interacts with the innards of FSX in various places.

[LATER STILL]

Things are becoming clearer as the fog of memory loss slowly lifts! :smile:. I refer you to this section in the FSUIPC Advanced User's Guide:

TurbulenceRate=1.0,5.0

TurbulenceDivisor=20,20,40,40

These control the Wind Smoothing wind effect emulations. The first Rate number is a multiplier for the turbulence wind directional range, and the second is the multiplier for the turbulence wind speed range. The range of both is 0.0 to 10.0.

The first Divisor number is the number of steps needed to change the turbulence wind direction from one extreme to the other (something most unlikely ever to actually happen, but this controls the speed of all changes), the second number is for the turbulence wind speed, the third number is for wind direction variability (variance), and the fourth number is for wind gusts (the range from 'normal' to 'max gust').

The maximum range of wind direction and speed changes to be experienced in turbulent conditions is obtained by multiplying the relevant TurbulenceRate value by the FSX turbulence severity setting in FS (0-4), and, for wind speed only, by 2% of the intended (‘normal’) smoothed wind speed. So, for a 50 knot wind, moderate turbulence (2), the default Rate parameter of 5.0 gives +/- 10 knots for speed changes.

This value is the extreme range. FSUIPC4 then computes a random target using a Normal, or Gaussian, approximation, giving values clustering strongly close to the ‘norm’. The increment computed from the maximum range and the relevant Divisor parameter is used to move the current value towards the new value. When reached, a new target is computed, and so on.

Note that this is all done independently for wind direction, speed and vertical effects, and separately too for gusts and variance (which both have an imposed range, of course). The gust and variance effects are emulated using targets with a normal distribution of greater standard deviation, so allowing the METAR-stated extremes to actually be reached occasionally.

The increment rate is based on the frame rate for turbulence, but on an average of 5–10 Hz for gusts and variance.

I've highlighted the relevant bits in red. I think it sounds like you want wind gusting to change more rapidly, so you need to try reducing the final value of the four in the TurbulenceDivisor parameter. The parameters set here by default are those arrived at after much experimentation, and testing by experienced pilots, in order to try to achieve the most realistic effects. I know that PMDG add-on aircraft users had to reduce these effects by around 50% because they were too severe for their autopilots to overcome. I think you are the first person who actually wants to increase the effects, or at least one of them! ;-)

Pete

[plpazodo]

Hello Pete,

Did some tests and using weather from FSX and works fine, not sure why from ASE (standard mode) is not working as expected.

Tested today at KGON with reported winds 34015G24KT and winds just stayed fix at 15knts, no changes over that number, if selecting "SuppressWindTurbulence=Yes" it seems to correct the gusting effect and changes over 15knts (16k to 23k).

I also tested reducing the turbulence divisor final value but it seems to make no effect unless using the suppress wind turbulence option.

I will conduct more testing changing values on ASE.

Thanks and Rgds,

Pedro

[Pete Dowson]

Did some tests and using weather from FSX and works fine, not sure why from ASE (standard mode) is not working as expected.

By "standard mode" do you mean you aren't using DWC? (Direct Wind Control)/

Tested today at KGON with reported winds 34015G24KT and winds just stayed fix at 15knts, no changes over that number, if selecting "SuppressWindTurbulence=Yes" it seems to correct the gusting effect and changes over 15knts (16k to 23k).

Hmm. FSUIPC cannot differentiate where the weather gets set from. I don't understand that. Unless you are using DWC -- I've not checked to see if "Global" mode (as used by DWC) is overriding things.

Pete

[plpazodo]

Hello Pete,

Is correct, the test were made using standard mode (not DWC).

A few minutes ago I did another test at the same place but this time using DWC and seems to work good.

The only bad thing using DWC is the well know issue when trying to get metar at destination, you know it will give the weather at present aircraft location. I usually flight with radar contact and not sure at what point it will mess my flights, this is the reason I always use Standard depiction, I can live with small stutters when ASE injects weather, but at least it provides a very accurate weather background.

Rgds

Pedro

[Pete Dowson]

A few minutes ago I did another test at the same place but this time using DWC and seems to work good.

Strange. The non-DWC mode is actually setting weather very much like FSX normal settings. DWC is very different.

I use AS2012 which is set for DWC by default.

The only bad thing using DWC is the well know issue when trying to get metar at destination, you know it will give the weather at present aircraft location. I usually flight with radar contact and not sure at what point it will mess my flights, this is the reason I always use Standard depiction,

I use RC and AS2012 in DWC mode. For over a year now FSUIPC has worked in conjunction with ASE and AS2012 to provide correct destination weather -- FSUIPC gets it direct from ASE/AS2012 when the latter is running in DWC mode. There's been a lot of chat about all this on the RC support forum. Additionally programs like Aivlasoft's EFB can get the weather direct from ASE/AS2012. There is really no longer any reason NOT to use DWC.

Regards

Pete

[plpazodo]

Hello Pete,

I did an small flight with DWC and you are right, weather at destination match what RC reported.

Do you mind to send your INI setting to work in conjunction with ASE/AS2012? just to compare. For example do you use FSUIPC wind smoothing having DWC enabled on AS? do you supress or enable anything?

Do you use prevent cloud redraw option on AS? I know this question is related to Active Sky itself and should be discussed on their forum but just wondering if you can provide help as you have more experience in this.

Thanks a lot!

Pedro

[Pete Dowson]

Do you mind to send your INI setting to work in conjunction with ASE/AS2012?

Any settings will do, to taste. My cockpit Pc isn't on at present -- no time to enable the cockpit til tomorrow, or maybe monday (7 PCs are involved and a full 737-800 cockpit).

For example do you use FSUIPC wind smoothing having DWC enabled on AS? do you supress or enable anything?

I use FSUIPC wind smoothing, but I currently don't suppress or enable anything else -- as far as I remember, that is!

Do you use prevent cloud redraw option on AS?

I don't remember, sorry.

Ask me again on Monday when i get my cockpit back on.

Regards

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

Is correct, the test were made using standard mode (not DWC).

A few minutes ago I did another test at the same place but this time using DWC and seems to work good.

I've been comparing the results on wind smoothing and gusts of using different combinations of: FSUIPC's turbulence suppression and actual weather with just gusts and weather with both gusts and turbulence (a rare combination, really, as you normally get turbulence in upper layers only and gusts near the surface only).

I need to explain something. With wind smoothing enabled in FSUIPC the simulation of gusts, directional variance, and turbulence, provided by FS itself is virtually eliminated. It cannot be helped -- either it smooths the winds or it doesn't. At the level it is working at it cannot distinguish between changes to wind direction and speed due to normal changes and those due to these oscillating effects. THEREFORE in order to get these effects, FSUIPC adds its own simulation. It is this simulation which is modulated via those two parameter lines I mentioned earlier.

Now when either gusts or turbulence is active in the current wind, things are straight-forward. The simulation varies the wind at different speeds and over a different range accordingly. But when both are active together, it gets very very complicated. There are two different oscillations going on with different frequencies and different ranges.

Here, when the wind is set with both gusts and turbulence, the turbulence is tending to override the gusts -- the winds are not varying as much as the gust range set.

I think this is what you were seeing, and why inhibiting the trbulence gave you your more expected gusting range. I'm sure that the only difference between your nonDWC and your DWC weather in this regard was that the latter (more realistically in my option) did not provide winds with both effects turned on.

I'm not sure I can do anything about this without risking messing the code up, but I will have a look.

I don't really think there's anything else in the INI or AS settings which impinge upon all this.

[LATER]

Okay. Try 4.856, now up. I made the turbulence oscillate around the last computed gust value rather than the set value. The unlikely (unrealistic?) combination of gusts nd turbulence now works better. It isn't perfect, but I think perfection would be too costly in terms of both my time trying to work it out and in performance too. ;-)

Regards

Pete

[plpazodo]

Hello Pete,

Thanks a lot for your explanation and kind support, I will check your latest release later on today and let you know my findings.

Anyways I was testing yesterday with DWC instead Standard (ASE) and from my point of view depection on gusts was good.

Thank again for your time on this.

Rgds,

Pedro

[Pete Dowson]

Anyways I was testing yesterday with DWC instead Standard (ASE) and from my point of view depection on gusts was good.

Yes, I think ActiveSky is able to provide more realistic weather in DWC mode. I suspect the combination of gusts and turbulence in the same wind layer isn't intentional in non-DWC modes -- it is more likely to be a result of the way FS dynamic weather interpolates and merges layers from different stations. In DWC mode there's only one set of weather -- all stations are the same.

Regards

Pete

[SoulFlight]

I still don't get the logic how these settings work together.....

I use AS2012 in DWC mode and FSUIPC, which changes weather in FSX directly. now, correct me if i'm wrong:

1. DWC mode loads wind turbulence and gusts into FSX weather, according to my AS2012 setup.

2. When wind smoothing enabled, FSUIPC will block the AS2012 gusts, so far so good, I have my winds smoothed out by AS2012 so I dont need that setting.

3. the options to suppress gusts and turbulence, do they suppress ALL these effects, or just the ones added by FSUIPC? AS2012 simulates wind turbulence and gusts, so, if I suppress those effects in FSUIPC, this simulation is good for nothing? Or does it just prevent FSUIPC from adding its own turbulence effects to the winds?

I noticed that with all wind turbulence suppressed, I get some shaking in climbs and approaches, but my cruises are always completely smooth, I always have to switch wind turbulence to suppress if I fly any of the PMDG planes, and I even implemented that item on my before start checklist ;) a shame though....

[Pete Dowson]

I use AS2012 in DWC mode and FSUIPC, which changes weather in FSX directly. now, correct me if i'm wrong:

Correct, as it does too in non-DWC mode. It only uses FSUIPC on FS9.

1. DWC mode loads wind turbulence and gusts into FSX weather, according to my AS2012 setup.

Yes, when appropriate, of course.

2. When wind smoothing enabled, FSUIPC will block the AS2012 gusts, so far so good, I have my winds smoothed out by AS2012 so I dont need that setting.

Okay. If you are happy with AS2012 smoothing, why enable FSUIPC's? This thread has been about FSUIPC's smoothing.

3. the options to suppress gusts and turbulence, do they suppress ALL these effects, or just the ones added by FSUIPC?

The latter -- see below.

AS2012 simulates wind turbulence and gusts

No. With FSUIPC's smoothing disabled, it is FS which is simulating turbulence and gusts. AS2012 just provides the METARs.

so, if I suppress those effects in FSUIPC, this simulation is good for nothing? Or does it just prevent FSUIPC from adding its own turbulence effects to the winds?

I thought this was clear enough from the way those options are presented in the Winds tab? Those are wind effects ADDED by FSUIPC if its Wind Smoothing is enabled. The options are part of the wind smoothing section on the tab. Without wind smoothing they are irrelevant as then FSUIPC is not providing those effects.

The other facilities on the winds tab apply normally to weather set through FSUIPC-- unless the option for FSUIPC to change FS's own weather is selected (not recommended).

Pete