MakeRwys potential bug.

[brianwhtn]

Hi Pete,

Could you please check the MakeRwys program. I am using the latest version and ProATCx and I have been noticing that proatcx is not giving me the taxi routes with this version. I tried an earlier version and this seems to be ok. This was at EGKK using the latest version of UK2000's Gatwick V4, the current version of proatcx.

Thanks for your help

Brian Houghton

[Pete Dowson]

There's been no changes to anything to do with taxi routes. If fact there's been very few changes over the years -- mostly additions in response to requests.

What are the two versions of MakeRunways you are comparing the results of? Perhaps you can supply the taxi route files from the two so I can compare them? (The MakeRunways documentation will tell you which they are). Please ZIP them and attach them, making it clear which is which.

Pete

 

[brianwhtn]

Thanks for the quick reply Pete.

Please find attached the files as requested.

I was at stand 105 of uk2000 Gatwick extreme scenery V4.11

The earlier mkrwys is the version that came with ProATCx V1.9.2.5

tried to attach files but I am only allowed to attach a small file so I have linked the folder in a private message

Brian

[Pete Dowson]

2 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

The earlier mkrwys is the version that came with ProATCx V1.9.2.5

Sorry, I need version numbers.

2 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

tried to attach files but I am only allowed to attach a small file

Er ... they are text files. Text files zip up really small! 

Just got them. Only 6 Mb and 17 Mb each. They should be accepted separately!  In any case you put two ZIP files in one ZIP file, doubling the size!

And there are two taxiway files, labelled for the MakeRunways version.  But only one set of Runways files!

Anyway, I see they are different. In fact the later one is larger, so has more in it. I'll see if I can make time to look tomorrow. Perhaps you could meanwhile supply the missing Runways.txt file (the one you didn't send, which might be useful as that is effectively the log of what MakeRunways does.

Are both sets made at the same time -- i.e. no scenery updates in between?

Pete

 

[Pete Dowson]

The EGKK taxiways in the older T5 file are from the default airport, not an add-on. There are 100 taxiways listed there.

The newer T5.CSV contains 263 taxiways for EGKK. It looks like you installed the UK2000 Gatwick between using the older MakeRunways progrm and the newer one.

So, they are not comparable!

I really do not know why you think there's a problem with MakeRunways. You will need to be more specific, and show the changes you think are messing things up for you other than a change in your scenery library. Best to run the version of MakeRunways you think is okay on your latest scenery so that the files are comparable, and supply the T5.CSV and Runways.txt file from that run AND from the latest.

With all the relevant and comparable data from the two versions of MakeRunways I can tell you what the differences are, if any, and you can then ask ProATC support why this messes them up.

Pete

 

[Pete Dowson]

Now i know that it's the added UK2000 EGKK you have the problem with (and not a change of MakeRwys version), I think I know what ProATC's problem is -- invisible hold short points.

The Hold Short points can be normal or "no draw". The no draw ones are only used by add-on scenery, and UK2000 seems to make a lot of use of them.  Instead they draw the hold points in the scenery graphics rather than rely on the automatic system. The 'no draw' type is used to facilitate the AI holding point, not too far away from the runway, the actual drawn line been placed by a .bgl scenery file at the correct location. AI holding at the proper hold position would otherwise never get permission to proceed from ATC.

MakeRwys didn’t properly recognize NO DRAW hold points, so airports using them a lot, like UK2000, have T5 files with runways not ending at a hold short. That caused programs like Pilot2ATC and, probably, ProATC/X, to fail to provide departure taxi instructions.

This was fixed in MakeRunways version 4.880 last year. No draw hold points are now included and encoded as Type 7 (see the documentation). I know that Pilot2ATC was changed to use these as well as Type 2 (the normal hold points). Maybe ProATC/X wasn't fixed like this, but then it would have had problems with the UK2000 EGKK in any case.

I think you need to re-run the older MakeRunways against your current scenery, so you can see what happens then with UK2000 EGKK. If ProATC/X likes EGKK then, I'll need to see the T5.csv and Runways.txt files for that run so I can understand why.

Note that some ATC programs (eg Radar Contact) don't use the hold short points to mark where to stop, but distance from runway encroachment. That's also what the default ATC does.

Pete

 

 

[brianwhtn]

HI Pete.

 

OK lets start again. Test 1 - I have run version V4.8.4.0 of MakeRwys as admin (this version came with Proatcx). I have not uninstalled any scenery or added any scenery. so have uk2000 gatwick extreme V4.11, the latest version of proatcx V1.9.2.5 (networked). attached is T5.csv and runways files from that version. Again I am unable to attach files (T5.csv is 14,560 Kb and runways.txt is over 109,000kb) even zipped they are too big. Ran P3dV4.5 (Latest version) all worked as it should, proatcx gave me taxiways to runway from stand 105. And on return flight gave me taxiways back to stand 105 at Gatwick.

At the bottom of the message screen i have the following message (Drag files here to attach, or choose files...
Max total size 0.02MB ) so again I will link to my dropbox through private message.

Test 2 - Deleted files created by makerwys V4.8.4.0 and re-run with version V4.8.9.1 of MakeRwys as admin (this is the latest version from your forum downloads). No changes to the setup. attached is T5.csv and runways files from that version. Again I am unable to attach files (T5.csv is 14,560 Kb and runways.txt is over 109,000kb) even zipped they are too big. Ran P3dV4.5 (Latest version) Now no taxiways to runway from stand 105.

The strange thing is that the AI get the taxi routes, just not me.

Regards

Brian

[Pete Dowson]

Okay. Thanks. That's better. At least I can now compare the T5's and check them against the log.

As far as I can see it is because of the "No Draw" classification of the hold points. These were erroneously coded as type 5 but corrected in MakeRwys 4.880 to be type 7.

Type 5 is supposed to mean Gate or Park termination of a taxiway. I don't know why ProATC/X is dependent on those for taxiing to the runway.

I'm not going to revert Makerwys to continue to classify things incorrectly.  That would be wrong and mess other programs up. The issue has really only arisen in the last year or so with Gary Summons of UK2000 using the no draw hold points liberally in order to have hold points made correctly and get around the AI getting stuck through not being close enough for take off permission.

I can think of three possible solutions for you:

1. Ask ProATC/X to interpret the T5 file as documented.  OR

2. Me to provide an option (by Command Line) to ask MakeRunways to use the old (wrong) classification.  OR

3,  Advising ProATC/X users to stick to the version supplied with ProATC/X (which may be exactly why they do provide it?)

So, what do you think?

1 hour ago, brianwhtn said:

The strange thing is that the AI get the taxi routes, just not me.

Not so strange: taxi routes can be worked out without depending on hold point classification. I don't know why it was done using them. AI, like Radar Contact, uses the runway location and the nearness of the taxiroute to the correct threshold. As I said earlier, the default ATC only give permission for AI to enter the runway when they are very near (nearer than most safe-distance hold points).

In any case the default ATC was written by the same developers who designed the airport definition methods.

Pete

 

[brianwhtn]

Thanks for the reply Pete.

I don't think Proatcx is currently being updated since Morad had a nasty accident and now seems to have gone off the radar. It has been 18 months since proatx has had any updates, but I will enquire to see.

I do not think you should revert to an earlier version.

If I went with option 3 what does that mean for my other add-ons? The version that proatcx supplied does not use lorby app, which I assume will mean any add-ons using the new p3d add-on.cfg system would not be recognised.

Option 2, again how would that fair with my other addons?

Maybe i will run both!

Anyway thank you for your quick response.

Kind regards, Stay safe

Brian

[Pete Dowson]

1 hour ago, brianwhtn said:

If I went with option 3 what does that mean for my other add-ons? The version that proatcx supplied does not use lorby app, which I assume will mean any add-ons using the new p3d add-on.cfg system would not be recognised.

Do you have Lorby-Si AddonOrganiser installed?  If so then that version (4.840) automatically runs it to generate the file it needs.  That was the method used until Oliver made the special little program now shipped with MakeRwys.

1 hour ago, brianwhtn said:

Option 2, again how would that fair with my other addons?

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying you have other addons which depend on the wrong classification of hold points?

Pete

 

[brianwhtn]

4 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

Do you have Lorby-Si AddonOrganiser installed?

 

Yes I have the addon program installed and now I am using the export option and the makerwys V4.8.4.0, as the newset makerwys version still gives the no taxi routes even using the export option.

4 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying you have other addons which depend on the wrong classification of hold points?

 

No I am not saying I have other addons that depend on the wrong classification, as I have not seen this error with others. But there must be differences with the latest version of makerwys, so was asking if I use the older version that works for me, is there any other side effects from not using the newer version.

Brian

[Pete Dowson]

3 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

Yes I have the addon program installed and now I am using the export option and the makerwys V4.8.4.0

That version of MakeRunways automatically calls AddOnOrganizer in any case, using a command line option to make it produce the exported scenery file in its own folder (the P3D/FSX folder).

3 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

the newset makerwys version still gives the no taxi routes even using the export option.

It provides all the taxi routes but ProATC/X doesn't understand the codes. I am not sure why it is even looking for them.

Anyway, since the "newest" version hasn't changed since last time you used it, how did you think it would suddenly do something different for you?

3 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

But there must be differences with the latest version of makerwys

I explained at length what the difference was -- a correction to the data relating to Hold Short points. Did you miss all that? 😞

3 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

so was asking if I use the older version that works for me, is there any other side effects from not using the newer version.

And I said only if you have other addons also expecting an incorrect coding of hold short points!

I think I'll leave this now as we are simply repeating things already made very clear.

Pete

 

[brianwhtn]

14 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

 

Anyway, since the "newest" version hasn't changed since last time you used it, how did you think it would suddenly do something different for you?

I explained at length what the difference was -- a correction to the data relating to Hold Short points. Did you miss all that? 😞

And I said only if you have other addons also expecting an incorrect coding of hold short points!

 

 

No need to be like that Pete, Was just asking for clarification.

 

[Pete Dowson]

7 minutes ago, brianwhtn said:

No need to be like that Pete, Was just asking for clarification.

Sorry, it was just that I seemed to be repeating myself over and over.

Just to make it quite clear, the correction I made which apparently affects ProATC/X, was to distinguish between the position on a taxiway at Gates or Parking spots from the newer "no draw" hold points. Understandably this confusion, when both looked the same, adversely affected some programs (most notably Pilot2ATC). 

I had assumed, obviously wrongly, that the same improvement would be beneficial to other ATC programs like ProATC/X, but evidently not.

This would probably not have been so noticeable, and not a problem for either program, before developers like UK2000 started using the No Draw hold points profusely in order to be able to place hold points at the proper place for the airport without adversely affecting the AI traffic operations.

I have now made a newer version of MakeRunways which, with a command line option, can make the no draw hold points again look like the parking or gate points on the taxiways. To use this facility you'd need to make a shortcut for MakeRwys.exe with the parameter /OLDNODRAW. If you want to try this out let me know.

Pete

 

[brianwhtn]

Yes Pete I would like to try the new version.

 

Thanks

Brian

[Pete Dowson]

17 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

Yes Pete I would like to try the new version.

Attached. Not really a "new" version, just version 4.891 with that option /OLDNODRAW to revert the correction for NO DRAW hold points.

Pete

 

 

MakeRwys4892 fixed.zip

[brianwhtn]

8 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

Attached. Not really a "new" version, just version 4.891 with that option /OLDNODRAW to revert the correction for NO DRAW hold points.

Pete

 

MakeRwys4892.zip 27.9 kB · 1 download

Understood Pete, will let you know if all ok.

Thanks again for your support.

[brianwhtn]

Hi Pete,

Downloaded and ran using the /OLDNODRAW switch exported to proatcx and still no go, proatcx still refusing to give me taxiroutes.

I have sent link via private message with the new t5 and runways.txt for you to have a look at, but to be honest with you, I would not spend time on this too much as proatcx is not going to be updated anytime soon.

I will revert to the older makerwys version as that works.

Thanks for all your help.

Kind regards

Brian

[Pete Dowson]

3 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

Downloaded and ran using the /OLDNODRAW switch exported to proatcx and still no go, proatcx still refusing to give me taxiroutes.

Ooops. In making that quick change i messed something else up and tagged all the other taxiways as "unknown"!! 

Sorry, Please do try again. First delete the 4.892 you downloaded already and try this one for me. I need to make sure it works okay because I will be trying to develop it in the future for new sims, like MSFS and maybe P3D5, if, as and when I can.

Pete

MakeRwys4892 fixed.zip

[brianwhtn]

ok

[brianwhtn]

Ok Pete,

Just tried fixed version and I can report that I now have my taxiways back using the switch.

Do you want a copy of the runways.txt and the t5.csv files?

brian

[Pete Dowson]

42 minutes ago, brianwhtn said:

Just tried fixed version and I can report that I now have my taxiways back using the switch.

Okay, good.

42 minutes ago, brianwhtn said:

Do you want a copy of the runways.txt and the t5.csv files?

No. Not needed, thanks!

Pete

 

[brianwhtn]

Hi Pete,

Just thought I would update you on your makerwys switch option.

It works well on the problem I was having, however it has produced a side affect in that other airports that were ok are now not. This was your suspition all along.

I have been talking to a moderator over at proatcx, and at first he disagreed claiming my system was all wacked up, anyway so far I have given them all the evidence and followed everything that they asked me to do and still makerwys v4.891 (thats the one they asked me to use) gave errors, as you pointed out.

Will let you know if I get it resolved.

Thanks for help

Brian

[Pete Dowson]

4 hours ago, brianwhtn said:

It works well on the problem I was having, however it has produced a side affect in that other airports that were ok are now not. This was your suspition all along.

Can you tell me which airports that give problems, and what the problems are? I'll see if I have any of them.

Pete

 

[brianwhtn]

11 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

Can you tell me which airports that give problems, and what the problems are? I'll see if I have any of them.

Pete

 

Sure.

Flew Gatwick EGKK to MENARA INTL, MOROCCO GMMX (default scenery)

Brian