Low Speed Elevator/Rudder Sensitivity

[NZFF]

Hi all,

I'm new to both FS2020 and FSUIPC7 having had a long break from simming since FSX.

I noticed all the the GA aircraft that I am flying in FS2020 appeared to have both an overly sensitive response at low airspeed for both rudder and elevator axes, so dulled down the sensitivities in FS2020 control settings. They still appeared over the top so went googling and came across FSUIPIC7 and the concept of adjusting slopes. I have not been able to find a user manual so trialed and errored a few different varies to try and increase the flat dead area in the center of the curve. Is this the correct methodology? If not, could someone please point me in the correct direction?

I've attached a screengrab of what I currently have the values set to. 

Also wondering if I need to start FSUPIC7 every time I use the sim, or if its a set once and forget type software?

I still find my aircraft are far too twitchy and responsive on short final and in the flare. For what its worth, I'm using a new Logitech Extreme 3D Pro joystick.

Kind regards,

Andy

[aurel42]

Let me put my FSUIPC experience in contrast to yours: according to my SimMarket order history, I've been an FSUIPC user since 2004 (FSUIPC3). 

And, yet, I have no idea how to configure Aileron, Elevator and Rudder axes in a way that they behave halfway realistic, or even just predictable. I've tried handling the axes in MFS and reducing the sensitivity to a fraction of the default value (with sensitivity values of -60% down to -90%). I've tried handling the axes in FSUIPC with extreme response curves and by manipulating the min/max values in the ini file, sacrificing the full range of control surface motion for more precise control.

Nothing I tried resulted in the kind of control I get in P3D. I suspect it's a quirk of MFS. I'm using "quirk" because I'm just not sure if it's a bug or a feature. Perhaps the controller code in MFS is super smart and optimized to make any aircraft flyable with an Xbox controller with all the assists turned on. Perhaps it has some kind of "power steering" logic. I don't know what's up with it, but, to me, it just feels wrong.

It so frustrating that every subtle elevator or rudder movement seems wildly exaggerated when I'm preparing to touch down (ie. when the aircraft is as slow as can be), while my very limited real-world flying experience is that the aircraft needs more, not less, controller movement in slow flight (not sure if it's even a controller issue at this point, could as well be a flight dynamics issue; maybe someone with more IRL experience can chime in here). And don't get me started on the behaviour of the rudder in the moment of touchdown with one wheel in a crab.

So, yeah, if anybody has a setup that results in something that feels halfway realistic, I'd be happy to try it out. (I'm currently flying with a Warthog, mostly using the default C172/G1000.)

 

[John Dowson]

5 hours ago, NZFF said:

I have not been able to find a user manual

Yes, I'm currently updatimg the User manuals and they should be ready shortly. For the time being, most of the information in the FSUIPC5/6 manuals is still relevant, so if you are new to FSUIPC you can use these - see 

I will be releasing an installer for FSUIPC7 shortly (i.e. next 3-4 days) that will include the documentation (although not all updated).

5 hours ago, NZFF said:

so trialed and errored a few different varies to try and increase the flat dead area in the center of the curve. Is this the correct methodology? If not, could someone please point me in the correct direction?

Its best to just try them and see what works for you. Flattening in the centre is usually the way most people prefer.

5 hours ago, NZFF said:

Also wondering if I need to start FSUPIC7 every time I use the sim, or if its a set once and forget type software?

Depends on the settings. By default, FSUIPC7 exits with the sim, so you have to restart when you start the sim. To change this, you can turn off the option Exit with FS, and then FSUIPC7 will just sit in the system tray rather than exiting. Of course, the ideal solution is for FSUIPC7 to start automatically with the sim, but this is currently not possible with MSFS.

John

[NZFF]

11 hours ago, aurel42 said:

It so frustrating that every subtle elevator or rudder movement seems wildly exaggerated when I'm preparing to touch down (ie. when the aircraft is as slow as can be), while my very limited real-world flying experience is that the aircraft needs more, not less, controller movement in slow flight (not sure if it's even a controller issue at this point, could as well be a flight dynamics issue; maybe someone with more IRL experience can chime in here). And don't get me started on the behaviour of the rudder in the moment of touchdown with one wheel in a crab.

Glad it's not just me then! I work as pilot IRL and every aircraft I have flown from GA to airliners performs as you have described at low speed. The only manageable way in the sim to put the aircraft down without bouncing them seems to be with very deliberate and delicate joystick inputs, and flying a flatter than desired profile (3/4 reds down the slope) to reduce the amount of flare required. Annoyingly unsatisfying way to end a good simulated flight session- but mind you, the $30 million dollar full motion simulators we use for training at work don't feel very realistic in the landing phase either. I just remember the FSX aircraft being somewhat more realistic to handle. 

Thanks very much John for your response, links (and your software!). Pages 42 & 43 of the FSUIPC5 User Guide answer a lot of the questions I had about slope settings- thank you.

For FS2020 in particular, does it matter what the joystick sensitivities are set to inside the sim, or will FSUIPC override whatever is in there anyway?

Cheers!

[John Dowson]

13 hours ago, NZFF said:

For FS2020 in particular, does it matter what the joystick sensitivities are set to inside the sim, or will FSUIPC override whatever is in there anyway?

It shouldn't matter what the sim is set to, the values sent by FSUIPC should be used directly.

Some folks have achieved better sensitivity by manually editing the ini to extend the value range of the axis. However, this does mean that the axis can no longer send the full value range, but would also give you more control. To do this, you need to manually edit the ini and change the high/low value. So, for example, this is my elevator calibration setting:
        Elevator=-16384,-400,400,16383
So changing to something like
        Elevator=-20384,-400,400,20383
Would increase the 'expected' range, and so reduce the sensitivity, especially when using slopes. You could try this technique (with different values) to see if this improves things.

[RomeoTango1]

On 10/15/2020 at 5:03 AM, aurel42 said:

Let me put my FSUIPC experience in contrast to yours: according to my SimMarket order history, I've been an FSUIPC user since 2004 (FSUIPC3). 

And, yet, I have no idea how to configure Aileron, Elevator and Rudder axes in a way that they behave halfway realistic, or even just predictable. I've tried handling the axes in MFS and reducing the sensitivity to a fraction of the default value (with sensitivity values of -60% down to -90%). I've tried handling the axes in FSUIPC with extreme response curves and by manipulating the min/max values in the ini file, sacrificing the full range of control surface motion for more precise control.

Nothing I tried resulted in the kind of control I get in P3D. I suspect it's a quirk of MFS. I'm using "quirk" because I'm just not sure if it's a bug or a feature. Perhaps the controller code in MFS is super smart and optimized to make any aircraft flyable with an Xbox controller with all the assists turned on. Perhaps it has some kind of "power steering" logic. I don't know what's up with it, but, to me, it just feels wrong.

It so frustrating that every subtle elevator or rudder movement seems wildly exaggerated when I'm preparing to touch down (ie. when the aircraft is as slow as can be), while my very limited real-world flying experience is that the aircraft needs more, not less, controller movement in slow flight (not sure if it's even a controller issue at this point, could as well be a flight dynamics issue; maybe someone with more IRL experience can chime in here). And don't get me started on the behaviour of the rudder in the moment of touchdown with one wheel in a crab.

So, yeah, if anybody has a setup that results in something that feels halfway realistic, I'd be happy to try it out. (I'm currently flying with a Warthog, mostly using the default C172/G1000.)

 

Couldn't  agree more. Flight dynamics is by far my greatest disappointment re this simulator. Unfortunately the developers have it listed as fixed on the official forums.

[borisvp]

Not sure if I understand this correctly. Flight dynamics is actually not that bad in general in MSFS, but control surfaces effect is hopelessly overdone in most of the default aircraft. The Asobo guys are great in creating environment, but they have no idea how flying works.

So, what I would like to achieve is to move the joystick over its full range, but have only, say, half of the control surface deflection (meaning: half the output). Slope is not the right way, because it does not work even remotely realistic - there is basically nothing within 70% of the joystick movement, and then suddenly full deflection.

The term "sensitivity" is abiguous here - it depends how you understand it. So I try to explain in percentage values what I mean (example: rudder, because this is the worst):

In default setting, 100% of joystick deflection generates 100% of rudder deflection. Any slope still gives you 100% rudder deflection, and an aircraft bouncing all over the place. What I would like to have is 100% joystick deflection, but only 50% rudder deflection at 100% joystick, with a linear response. For those who are familiar with RC airplanes, that setting is called "dual rate".

Is this possible with the method John explained?

 

[John Dowson]

8 hours ago, borisvp said:

Is this possible with the method John explained?

Yes, of course. For 50% rudder deflection at 100% joystick with linear response, remove the slope completely, open your FSUIPC7.ini and fine the rudder entry under [JoystickCalibration]  (or in a profile specific JoystickCalibration section if you want to apply this there) - here's mine:
    Rudder=-16384,-750,750,15648
then just double the max/min values:
     Rudder=-32768,-750,750,31296

then when your joystick is at max/min deflection (sending values near -16384 or 15648), these will be calibrated using the extended range and so halved, giving you a +/- 50% rudder deflection.

[NZFF]

Hi John and borisvp- this fix sounds like exactly what I have been after as well!

I loaded up the version of FSUPIC7 I had installed but it wouldn't connect to FS2020. Is this because it is no longer free?

I redownloaded the FSUIPC7 Beta version from http://fsuipc.simflight.com/beta/FSUIPC7.zip  and reinstalled it, but am at a loss as to how to cancel the slopes so that I can then edit the .ini file with the suggested JoystickCalibration parameters. Any direction would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,

Andrew

[John Dowson]

8 hours ago, NZFF said:

I loaded up the version of FSUPIC7 I had installed but it wouldn't connect to FS2020. Is this because it is no longer free?

No. It is always free. However, there are additional facilities provided when using a registered/licensed version.
Why wouldn't it connect? Did it detect MSFS was running? Are you using auto-connect? Are you using a registered version?
Note that the latest installer doesn't come with a key file (license). You can download one from the FSUIPC7=beta announcements page, valid until 8th November. 

8 hours ago, NZFF said:

at a loss as to how to cancel the slopes so that I can then edit the .ini file with the suggested JoystickCalibration parameters. Any direction would be much appreciated.

In the calibration tab if the axis assignments panel, click the slope button and then adjust until you have a slope of 0. However, as you are editing the ini anyway, you can just remove them there - just look for the SlopeRudder parameter also in your [JoystickCalibration] section and remove that line.

[NZFF]

On 11/5/2020 at 11:07 PM, John Dowson said:

No. It is always free. However, there are additional facilities provided when using a registered/licensed version.
Why wouldn't it connect? Did it detect MSFS was running? Are you using auto-connect? Are you using a registered version?
Note that the latest installer doesn't come with a key file (license). You can download one from the FSUIPC7=beta announcements page, valid until 8th November. 

In the calibration tab if the axis assignments panel, click the slope button and then adjust until you have a slope of 0. However, as you are editing the ini anyway, you can just remove them there - just look for the SlopeRudder parameter also in your [JoystickCalibration] section and remove that line.

Thanks for the assistance again John- I was just able to manually edit the .ini file as described and with the 50% deflection at 100% linear response, I'm finding the aircraft to handle much more how I am used to in the real world, with the limitation of a non force feedback joystick. Many thanks for your help here.

And apologies- it turns out that FSUPIC7 does connect, I just don't see the option to go in and adjust my axis slopes anymore should I wish to experiment away from the linear response. I am currently running a linear line for rudder and pitch but wanted to keep a slope on my ailerons if possible.

Cheers!

 

[John Dowson]

You are using an unregistered version. You are also using an old version. Please download the latest version.

There is still a key file available (in the announcements page) that's valid but only until tomorrow. Licenses went on sale on Thursday.

[gert57]

John,

Thank you for your tip to decrease the flight control response. It made MSFS flyable for me.

I presume msfs was made with new controllers in mind, e.g. the honeycomb has a 180 degree control turn.

However, a lot of controllers, e.g. saitek have only 90 degrees.

Thank you, your tip and program have saved my flying!!

 

Gert57