UNCONTROLLED RUDDER INPUT AND STEERING DEVIATION

[PumpkinZA]

FSUIPC5.ini Please post questions in relation to FSUIPC always in Main Forum and not in a Sub Forum as it might not been seen to answer.

Good evening

As many before have indicated I am reluctant to post this inquiry as I am sure that somewhere an answer has been posted but unfortunately despite having read through articles and the FSUIPC manual I cannot solve the problem which is briefly described above and I am not sure to whom I should refer this matter.

Currently, I have the following set up:

• FSUIPC 5.153
• P3DV4.5
• PMDG 737-800 NGXu (Only aircraft I have flown since it was launched and prior to that the 737-800 NGX)
• CH PRODUCTS i.e Yoke, Throttle Quadrant and Pro Pedals all of which have been disabled in  P3DV4 Settings. I have managed to set up most of the axes to represent spoilers, flaps, throttle but have had to assign buttons to use for reverse thrust, parking brake gear and one or two other functions. I have used this hardware for some 15 years and it has served me well but it is quite possible that it IS well past its "sell by date" at this stage which might be part of the reason for the current un-commanded issue.
  • This hardware will be replaced by MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals and Honeycomb Yoke. I am considering the Saitek TQ but still need to find out if that is compatible with the new hardware. 
• NAVIGRAPH CHARTS
• ACTIVE SKY 
• SIMBRIEF 
• CHASEPLANE
• PROATC-X

Other hardware includes a powered USB 3.0 which is used to connect the CH Products controllers to the PC so perhaps with our "dirty" electricity and numerous spikes and dips this has caused issues with the axis values leading to instability.

Having said that the problem is as follows:

1. For testing purposes, I commence the start up procedures on the active runway and set the 737-800  up for a straight out departure using speed, heading and altitude and engaging auto pilot at about 1'000 feet.
2. However the problem occurs during the take-off roll.
3. Throttle is initially set to about 40% and auto throttle is engaged and brakes released simultaneously. Initially directional control is maintained by carefully applying left or right rudder and light application of left or right brake (not ideal). That seems to work until aircraft approaches between 45 and 60 knots when it suddenly veers sharply to the left or right depending on the last application of rudder input.
4. Recovery is a matter of a violent counter rudder input which does not seemingly have much impact as well as application of opposite brake which seems to work but inhibits aircraft's airspeed quite severely to the extent that in normal circumstances takeoff should be aborted. In addition to the uncontrolled yaw there is also an element of pitch deviation which is disconcerting. Notwithstanding best practice to abort, I have managed to take off purely to see what happens on landing and whilst there is also an uncontrolled deviation it is not as severe as during take off. Taxing at 10 knots or less is controllable but the nose wheel tends to "wander" left to right although not significantly so.  

[Thomas Richter]

Hi,

Quote

3. Throttle is initially set to about 40% and auto throttle is engaged and brakes released simultaneously. Initially directional control is maintained by carefully applying left or right rudder and light application of left or right brake (not ideal). That seems to work until aircraft approaches between 45 and 60 knots when it suddenly veers sharply to the left or right depending on the last application of rudder input.

in case it is a PMDG you will know that you cannot assign controls in FSUIPC other than direct to FS. If you assign in FSUIPC to calibrate or calibrate in FSUIPC you will always (most likely) end up with problems. The problem that starts with 45 to 60 kts looks like you assigned a tiller in FSUIPC?

Thomas

[frantzy13]

I am having this exact problem on takeoff roll. I believe the culprit is my 15-20 year-old PFC rudder pedals. When I go to recalibrate them I notice the yaw axis range is narrow and movement is spiky. 

Furthermore, when I manage to get airborne, these spikes cause autopilot issues (disconnecting and/or wandering off course) on the PMDG 737 ngxu.  This despite having the PMDG option selected to ignore control movements when Autopilot is selected...

I use a separate joystick as a tiller, and I have FSUIPC but in accordance with PMDG guidance do not have my hardware calibrated through it. 

Is it coincidence that both our ancient rudder pedals became unusable a month apart, or is there possibly something else contributing to this...?

Mike

[Morten]

On 2/11/2020 at 8:31 PM, Thomas Richter said:

in case it is a PMDG you will know that you cannot assign controls in FSUIPC other than direct to FS. If you assign in FSUIPC to calibrate or calibrate in FSUIPC you will always (most likely) end up with problems.

Hi Thomas 

If this is really the case in relation to PMDG, this is very cruisel for me and my settings!
However you were a bit fast in your answer, so please confirm if I got you right:

Types of axis assignments as it shows up in your program:

1. Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration
2. Send to FS as normal axis
3. Send to FSUIPC Offset 

So what you are telling us is that we have to stick to No.2 "Send to FS as normal axis" in the case of PMDG. CORRECT?

As it is my separate yoke, pedals and 4 quadrant throttles are all currently assigned to No.1 "Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration" AND I got problems with P3Dv4/PMDG 777!
A. My yoke will occasionally go completely bananas/uncontrollable whenever I disconnect the autopilot on approach - then I have to set sim to pause and reconnect the USB yoke before it will work normal again. 
B. FSUIPC keeps to forget my separate throttles per engine Joystick Calibration. Which means that I have to recalibrate my throttles all over again when starting a new sim session. Obviously pretty annoying!

NB. I have already disabled ALL my axis settings inside the P3Dv4 settings. Also I'm fully aware of that P3D occasionally tend to put them back again, so I have an eye on that.
Nevertheless, problems as described above keeps on ruining my sims! Question is, if all this is because of using a wrong FSUIPC axis assignment type?  

Regards,
Morten              

FSUIPC5.ini

[Pete Dowson]

19 minutes ago, Morten said:

So what you are telling us is that we have to stick to No.2 "Send to FS as normal axis" in the case of PMDG. CORRECT?

Perhaps I can explain what the problem is, so you can understand.

The PMDG aircraft do not get their control inputs in the normal way, from the Sim. They appear to be intercepting these inputs on arrival in SimConnect -- in the same was as FSUIPC -- and use those values.

In order to provide calibration and other facilities, FSUIPC does the same thing. It then calibrates the values as instructed and sends them on the the Sim. This latter action has to be done at a different level, otherwise there would be an infinite loop continually calibrating with no end result.

So, if you calibrate in FSUIPC, the aircraft ends up receiving two values which, because of the alteration calibration makes, will normally be different. Even if they are not different, which is unlikely, there could be a slight timing difference in their arrival, resulting in stutters.

The answer is, therefore, sometimes to NOT use FSUIPC calibration for these aircraft. This means either assigning in the Sim instead of FSUIPC -- an unsuitable choice if you are assigning for other aircraft, in other profiles, in FSUIPC - or assigning in FSUIPC but to the regular AXIS ... FS controls. Then don't calibrate.

Luckily, because FSUIPC offers the Profile system, this doesn't need extending to other aircraft, only those prone to this problem.

Incidentally, in the past the main reported problems with PMDG assignment and calibration have not particularly mentioned rudder problems. More usually jittering throttles. But even saying that I've seen reports from some folks who've managed.

------------------------------------

Looking at your FSUIPC settings, you do appear to have assigned the rudder to the regular AXIS control:

12=CR,256,F,65764,0,0,0    -{ TO SIM: AXIS_RUDDER_SET }-

You have also calibrated, at least nominally:

Rudder=-16287,0,0,16383

Looking at that, I'm thinking that possibly your main problem is really that you've calibrated with no central neutral zone. It is very rare to come across rudder pedals which always centre exactly. If you are going to try calibrating you do really need to do it properly -- take a look at the numbered steps in the User guide.

Pete

 

[Morten]

Thanks indeed Pete for taking your time and getting back to me with a quick response...
I'll look into your answer in depth and get back to you if any further questions.

Regards,
Morten 

[Morten]

Hi Pete

1. In my specific situation I'm using PMDG 777 most often.

However occasionally I use these other aircraft for VFR:
2. Standard P3Dv4 Mooney Bravo aircraft   
3. Third party DC3 by Daniel Fuernkaess, Manfred Jahn, Alexander M. Metzger, Hans-Joerg Naegele, Mike Cyul, Warwick Carter, Jan Visser 

So in this particular situation of mine what would you advise me to do regarding calibration methods and profile systems for each aircraft? 

Regards,
Morten

PS. Actually my very least occasional problems is NOT with my rudder/brake pedals (occasionally the pedals are completely "dead" by start up a session. But immediately solved by simply replugging the USB connection with absolutely no further incidents whatsoever!) As I wrote to you my main problem is my 4 quadrant throttles and my yoke!              

[Pete Dowson]

4 hours ago, Morten said:

So in this particular situation of mine what would you advise me to do regarding calibration methods and profile systems for each aircraft? 

It's only the PMDG which has peculiar ways regarding inputs.

4 hours ago, Morten said:

occasionally the pedals are completely "dead" by start up a session. But immediately solved by simply replugging the USB connection with absolutely no further incidents whatsoever!

Sounds like you have Windows operating power saving on that device's USB connection. Make sure you turn all USB power management off (properties of USB in Device Manager).

4 hours ago, Morten said:

As I wrote to you my main problem is my 4 quadrant throttles and my yoke!              

Then it is almost certainly because of all these direct assignments and calibrations:

0=AX,321,D,1,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: Aileron }-
1=AY,1,D,0,2,0,0    -{ DIRECT: Elevator }-
2=AZ,1,D,22,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: Spoilers }-
3=AU,1,D,5,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: PropPitch }-
4=AV,1,D,6,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: Mixture }-
6=BX,256,D,11,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: Throttle3 }-
7=BY,256,D,12,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: Throttle4 }-
8=BR,256,D,10,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: Throttle2 }-
9=BS,256,D,9,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: Throttle1 }-
10=CX,256,D,7,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: LeftBrake }-
11=CY,256,D,8,0,0,0    -{ DIRECT: RightBrake }-

which are unsuited to the PMDG aircraft.

I was mainly guided by the subject: of this thread:
"UNCONTROLLED RUDDER INPUT AND STEERING DEVIATION"

You should evidently have started a fresh thread with a more relevant title.

Pete

 

[Morten]

Hi Pete

May I ask you to please answer me precisely, specifically and directly according to my questions.

Which of the following environments would you recommend me to calibrate my PMDG:

1. Send to FS as normal axis inside the FSUIPC environment?
                             OR
2. Calibrate my axis entirely inside the P3Dv4 settings environment? 

Morten
  

[Pete Dowson]

16 hours ago, Morten said:

Hi Pete

May I ask you to please answer me precisely, specifically and directly according to my questions.

Which of the following environments would you recommend me to calibrate my PMDG:

1. Send to FS as normal axis inside the FSUIPC environment?
                             OR
2. Calibrate my axis entirely inside the P3Dv4 settings environment? 

Morten
  

Well, sorry, but either you are not reading the answers here (and in many other similar threads) or you are not understanding them -- in which case, apologies, but we do try to think of every possible way of explaining your choices.

Of your two "environments" you can use whichever you want!  If you want to assign anything at all in FSUIPC (for instance to use Profiles) you should certainly disable controllers in P3D and use FSUIPC exclusively, and vice versa. Do not mix -- that's asking for trouble..

The only thing peculiar about the PMDG aircraft and a few others is that you should only assign main control axes to the FS controls (in FSUIPC they are the ones beginning "AXIS ..."). Do not assign "direct" to FSUIPC calibration, and do not calibrate in FSUIPC.

That's it. I explained the reasons for this in the message above.

Pete

 

[Morten]

Well sorry for my part also, but what you don't seem to realize is when your customers finally has done all assigning and calibration according to your comprehensive and relatively complex manual, they will usually only return to you for help if something goes wrong - that could be months or even years after. Because of that it is obviously essential that you stick to the exact same terms as used in in your own FSUIPC manual and program. No vague and "agreed terms" please, which would have the tendency to confuse everyone else than folks in your own staff.
Put on top of that language barriers from your customers from all around the world!
Furthermore, take into account the fact that FSUIPC, as in my case, is only one out of 5 other plugins that has to be calibrated, adjusted, etc. Fortunately for most part though, with clear and straightforward manuals - otherwise it simply wouldn't be possible to get to the point of actually flying within my limited spare time!            

Experienced professionals as I guess we both are - in my case a construction architect - unfortunately have a very bad habit of taking for granted that everyone understand what we are explaining to them within our usually professional (..arrogant?) insider language. Because of that, it is sometimes best for everyone if we would leave that to other good and patient folks to communicate for us ;)

In agreement to this, for leaving out any misunderstandings I would be most grateful if you at least, for everyone's sake,  please would stick to the exact and fully expressed terms as it occurs both in your program and in your manual as in this example:

1. Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration
2. Send to FS as normal axis
3. Send to FSUIPC Offset 

Thank you.

/Morten

          

 

[Pete Dowson]

12 hours ago, Morten said:

In agreement to this, for leaving out any misunderstandings I would be most grateful if you at least, for everyone's sake,  please would stick to the exact and fully expressed terms as it occurs both in your program and in your manual as in this example:

1. Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration
2. Send to FS as normal axis
3. Send to FSUIPC Offset 

If you want to assign in FSUIPC, for PMDG aircraft Send to FS as Normal Axis AND select the "Axis_" controls. And do not calibrate in FSUIPC no matter where you assign.

As I have said clarly several tinmes already in this thread! You are simply being deliberately blind for some reason.

This advice has been gleaned from actual PMDG aircraft users who have experimented with what works best. I am not a PMDG user and never have been. I am not in a position to test ways of doing things with every possible other product out there.

What you seem to fail to realise is that FSUIPC is like a bag of tools. It is not a problem solver which needs no human involvement, it is a set of tools with many ways of being used. It has never been and never will be a simple load and go program which seems to be only the sort of program you might have any patience with.

I'm closing this thread now because there's absolutely no point in continuing this repetition of the same advice, the same information, over and over.

Pete