4.217 AFCS problems

[blueridgeflyer]

Hi Pete. Thanks for the latest beta & you've done a masterful job with the wind smoothing in this build. I really appreaciate your efforts. A point of interest...the PMDG 744 AFCS no longer commands proper lateral guidance to selected HDG. Could this be related to 4.127?

Thanks again,

Ryan

[Pete Dowson]

the PMDG 744 AFCS no longer commands proper lateral guidance to selected HDG. Could this be related to 4.127?

Not that I know of. What was the previous version of FSUIP4 you were using?

I don't think PMDG use anything in FSUIPC for their autopilot these days. It is all done via SimConnect directly I think. Could it be due to the way you have your joystick configured or assigned?

Regards

Pete

[blueridgeflyer]

Perhaps the PMDG 744 has difficultly interpreting the wind data in the fashion that it is being manipulated by 4.217? This issue only occurs with the latest beta build and not with 4.20. The AFCS HDG commands become wild and unpredictable, with bank angles exceeding 45 degrees to boot.

Ryan

[Pete Dowson]

Perhaps the PMDG 744 has difficultly interpreting the wind data in the fashion that it is being manipulated by 4.217? This issue only occurs with the latest beta build and not with 4.20. The AFCS HDG commands become wild and unpredictable, with bank angles exceeding 45 degrees to boot.

Please test with the wind smoothing turned off then, and let me know. The variables being controlled in FSUIPC4 for wind smoothing are similar to those in FSUIPC3, where PMDG aircraft worked fine, so I can only assume they've changed their methods significantly if what your saying is down to this.

If this is what is happening it looks like PMDG users will have to do without wind smoothing, but I would really surprise me, so please also test with your joystick/yoke disabled.

And did you miss all the increments between 4.200 and 4.217? There's been a large number of changes!

Pete

[blueridgeflyer]

Perhaps the PMDG 744 has difficultly interpreting the wind data in the fashion that it is being manipulated by 4.217? This issue only occurs with the latest beta build and not with 4.20. The AFCS HDG commands become wild and unpredictable, with bank angles exceeding 45 degrees to boot.

Please test with the wind smoothing turned off then, and let me know. The variables being controlled in FSUIPC4 for wind smoothing are similar to those in FSUIPC3, where PMDG aircraft worked fine, so I can only assume they've changed their methods significantly if what your saying is down to this.

If this is what is happening it looks like PMDG users will have to do without wind smoothing, but I would really surprise me, so please also test with your joystick/yoke disabled.

And did you miss all the increments between 4.200 and 4.217? There's been a large number of changes!

Pete

Sorry Pete, I missed out on the various versions between 4.200 & 4.217. Lateral guidance works fine with wind smooting unchecked. Disabling the controller has little if any effect.

Our 5 day old likes flightsim almost as much as daddy....it seems to keep him soothed and somewhat docile, so it looks like i will have some time to help out with testing. Just let me know.

Ryan

[Pete Dowson]

Lateral guidance works fine with wind smooting unchecked. Disabling the controller has little if any effect.

Okay. That's odd. I'll write to my contact in PMDG and ask him about that. It looks like I'll need to document the warning that you can't use FSUIPC4 wind smoothing with PMDG aircraft ! Shame.

Our 5 day old likes flightsim almost as much as daddy....it seems to keep him soothed and somewhat docile, so it looks like i will have some time to help out with testing. Just let me know.

Well, it took me 100's of hours of hacking to develop this solution, which basically is the same as it was in FS9 -- the time was in finding the same variables. I don't think it is very likely that I'll find a way that suits whatever PMDG have done with their autopilot. I'll have to ask them.

Pete

[cshark172]

I can confirm the same problem with PMDG 747x and 4.217 wind smoothing. Of interest, it is only a problem at lower altitudes (below 12k'). There were no problems during intermediate climb and cruise. I thought all was ok until descent, and on radar vectors below 12k the plane stopped tracking HDG, and went crazy. I turned off wind smoothing and all was fine. Maybe a hot key to enable/disable?

Kyle

[Pete Dowson]

I can confirm the same problem with PMDG 747x and 4.217 wind smoothing. Of interest, it is only a problem at lower altitudes (below 12k'). There were no problems during intermediate climb and cruise. I thought all was ok until descent, and on radar vectors below 12k the plane stopped tracking HDG, and went crazy. I turned off wind smoothing and all was fine. Maybe a hot key to enable/disable?

I'm waiting for a reply from PMDG first. I'd like to know what is going on.

Are you sure it isn't related to my simulated turbulence or variance or gusts? Can you use WeatherSet2 or similar to view the weather settings when you get this -- see if turbulence, variance or gusts are set for the level you are at? You could try suppressing them in any case, as a test. Maybe my simulation isn't good?

In the wind smoothing on FS9 I just smoothed it outright, but this has the unwanted side effect or removing turbulence et cetera, so i thought I was being clever adding it back in using my own algorithms, but maybe they are not so good?

[LATER]

Oh, check for turbulence in any cloud layer said to be close to the aircraft altitude too. I try to simulate that as well!

Regards

Pete

[cshark172]

It sure appears to be the way PMDG is calculating heading. I tried the same situation with the LDS 767, and Wilco 737 PIC and had no problems whatsoever. Fired up the PMDG again, and the problems came back. Next time I have a chance to do some testing, I will check things out with WeatherSet, but it could be a while. The variance and turbulence is a nice touch.

Kyle

[blueridgeflyer]

I can confirm the same problem with PMDG 747x and 4.217 wind smoothing. Of interest, it is only a problem at lower altitudes (below 12k'). There were no problems during intermediate climb and cruise. I thought all was ok until descent, and on radar vectors below 12k the plane stopped tracking HDG, and went crazy. I turned off wind smoothing and all was fine. Maybe a hot key to enable/disable?

I'm waiting for a reply from PMDG first. I'd like to know what is going on.

Are you sure it isn't related to my simulated turbulence or variance or gusts? Can you use WeatherSet2 or similar to view the weather settings when you get this -- see if turbulence, variance or gusts are set for the level you are at? You could try suppressing them in any case, as a test. Maybe my simulation isn't good?

In the wind smoothing on FS9 I just smoothed it outright, but this has the unwanted side effect or removing turbulence et cetera, so i thought I was being clever adding it back in using my own algorithms, but maybe they are not so good?

[LATER]

Oh, check for turbulence in any cloud layer said to be close to the aircraft altitude too. I try to simulate that as well!

Regards

Pete

Kyle is correct in that the HDG control issue seems to be specific to PMDGs 744. I just flew the Maddog2006 & its AFCS is unaffected from the manner in which 4.127 controls the local winds aloft. However, I have some unwelcomed news to report along my DFW - MSP flight. At altitude with ASX (wind smoothing unchecked from within the settings page) and 4.127 wind smooting enabled I experienced nose swings in excess of 30 degrees & airspeed fluctuations +/- 50 kts at FL330. Oddly this occured some 1hr into the flight & did not subside until I disabled winds aloft from within ASX.

Ryan

[MELKOR]

I too am having problems at any altitude with Pete's wind smoothing turned on. Guess us PMDG captains are stuck with FS's "crazy winds" a while longer. :-)

Pete - any chance that you could contact Lefteris at PMDG to "compare notes", as they say?

Thanks,

- Bill

[lefteris]

Gents-

I'll keep an eye on this thread and I'll be talking to Pete about this as well...

[Pete Dowson]

At altitude with ASX (wind smoothing unchecked from within the settings page) and 4.127 wind smooting enabled I experienced nose swings in excess of 30 degrees & airspeed fluctuations +/- 50 kts at FL330.

Did you check the actual instated weather, via WeatherSet2 for example, to see if this was due to simulated turbulence, variability or gusting?

I really need information on any such reports because it might just be doing what it thinks it ought to given the input values. If you don't want to look at these things, could you please save a flight at that time and ZIP the FLT+FSSAVE+WX files for me (to petedowson@btconnect.com -- but don't move this thread to there! ;-) ) so I can look at the weather which was set myself.

Maybe my simulation needs a little adjustment, but I cannot tell from these reports as there's no information about what should be going on. It would be nice also to know what other wind and cloud options you have set in FSUIPC (so maybe also include your FSUIPC4.INI file please).

Regards

Pete

[blueridgeflyer]

At altitude with ASX (wind smoothing unchecked from within the settings page) and 4.127 wind smooting enabled I experienced nose swings in excess of 30 degrees & airspeed fluctuations +/- 50 kts at FL330.

Did you check the actual instated weather, via WeatherSet2 for example, to see if this was due to simulated turbulence, variability or gusting?

I really need information on any such reports because it might just be doing what it thinks it ought to given the input values. If you don't want to look at these things, could you please save a flight at that time and ZIP the FLT+FSSAVE+WX files for me (to petedowson@btconnect.com -- but don't move this thread to there! ;-) ) so I can look at the weather which was set myself.

Maybe my simulation needs a little adjustment, but I cannot tell from these reports as there's no information about what should be going on. It would be nice also to know what other wind and cloud options you have set in FSUIPC (so maybe also include your FSUIPC4.INI file please).

Regards

Pete

Good morning Pete,

OK, Ive emailed the requested files. Flying the LDS 767 Ive noticed a discrepancy between the SHIFT+Z Fsx winds and the wind vector line on the Multi Fuction Display (this is true for the PMDG744X & Maddog2006 as well). At the point at which I saved the sim, the FSX winds were westerly at near 100Kts yet the MFD showed twitching Northeasterly winds at roughly 20 Kts. Further, the aircraft was accellerated to 250 Kts at FL200 and would overspeed at 1 second intervals before returning to commanded SPD.

My ASX and FSUIPC settings do not call for random turbulence.

Ryan

[Pete Dowson]

OK, Ive emailed the requested files.

Okay. They've not arrived yet. I'll have a look later. Maybe tomorrow now.

Flying the LDS 767 Ive noticed a discrepancy between the SHIFT+Z Fsx winds and the wind vector line on the Multi Fuction Display (this is true for the PMDG744X & Maddog2006 as well).

One wonders where they get the "ambitent wind" data from, then, as the values in Shift+Z always correspond to the SimConnect variables for these two settings.

Further, the aircraft was accellerated to 250 Kts at FL200 and the aircraft would overspeed at 1 second intervals.

All three aircraft, or are you back to only the PMDG now?

My ASX and FSUIPC settings do not call for random turbulence.

That's not the point. Turbulence, variablility and gusts could be part of what is being set as part of "real" ASX weather. There are facilities to suppress all this in FSUIPC's wind options.

Regards

Pete

[blueridgeflyer]

Further, the aircraft was accellerated to 250 Kts at FL200 and the aircraft would overspeed at 1 second intervals.

All three aircraft, or are you back to only the PMDG now?

So far as I can tell, all three aircraft have this 1 second fluctuations. A better word might be pulsating.

My ASX and FSUIPC settings do not call for random turbulence.

That's not the point. Turbulence, variablility and gusts could be part of what is being set as part of "real" ASX weather. There are facilities to suppress all this in FSUIPC's wind options.

Oh I see what you are trying to say. I will have a look and edit this post accordingly.

EDIT: FSUIPC Options--allow change to FS Wx, smooth wind near aircraft 1 kts or 1deg/sec, smooth when airborne, suppress turbulence/gusts, suppress cloud turb

The aircraft still displayed above noted characteristics notably during the climb. At my intermediate level off point I noticed the MFD wind vector "snapped" from a light NE wind to the prevailing FSX wind which was westerly at near 100Kts. This occurred at FL250. Also I noted the Auto throttle engine acceleration / decelerations to be much slower...and twitching at 1 second intervals when airborne. On the TO roll it was very slow in spooling up to Thrust Lim...& did not show signs of 1 sec pulsating.

Ryan

[Pete Dowson]

So far as I can tell, all three aircraft have this 1 second fluctuations. A better word might be pulsating.

That is really annoying, because it was occurring originally with the default aircraft, and I spent many hours over it and thought I'd managed to get rid of it completely.

If I haven't actually succeeded in making it smooth, though I thought I had, it is looking like I may have to withdraw the whole thing and await FSXI. :-(

That's not the point. Turbulence, variablility and gusts could be part of what is being set as part of "real" ASX weather. There are facilities to suppress all this in FSUIPC's wind options.

Oh I see what you are trying to say. I will have a look and edit this post accordingly.

Also, see if suppressing turbulence and gusts helps at all.

Regards

Pete

[blueridgeflyer]

So far as I can tell, all three aircraft have this 1 second fluctuations. A better word might be pulsating.

That is really annoying, because it was occurring originally with the default aircraft, and I spent many hours over it and thought I'd managed to get rid of it completely.

If I haven't actually succeeded in making it smooth, though I thought I had, it is looking like I may have to withdraw the whole thing and await FSXI. :-(

That's not the point. Turbulence, variablility and gusts could be part of what is being set as part of "real" ASX weather. There are facilities to suppress all this in FSUIPC's wind options.

Oh I see what you are trying to say. I will have a look and edit this post accordingly.

Also, see if suppressing turbulence and gusts helps at all.

Regards

Pete

Please refer to the my edit above. However frustrating it is, the truth of the matter is that your the closest anyone has gotten to solving this. Pete, I sure am glad that we have you around & wanted to thank you again for all the work.

Ryan

[Pete Dowson]

Also, see if suppressing turbulence and gusts helps at all.

Please refer to the my edit above.

Ah, you suppressed them. So it isn't anything to do with my various simulated wind changes?! :-(

That's very annoying. It means there is something wrong with the way I'm doing it rather more basic. Drat. :-(

Pete

[funkyp]

Hi Pete,

maybe this information may help to track down the problem further. The initial situation was real weather with 200°/9kn and wind smoothing turned on, with an interval set to "2".

I tried a flight with built DG808S. Thereby I noticed a regular pulling to one side for 20 sec, while holding straight course with the stick, after another 20 sec the initial behaviour restablished. During the 20 sec swaying to one side I could compensate with Ctrl-4 (aileron trim left). Consequently, after another 20 sec. I had to compensate with Ctrl-6. Because of the aileron trim offset, it is not clear if the biased siutation tends to left or right. There was also a regular dipping of IAS by approx. 20 kn, with a higher rate of 1-2sec (est.). I noticed also a high frequent jitter in the last digit of wind direction (which may be normal of course).

After switching to user defined weather, first the Shift-Z wind direction "rotated" constantly through full 360° for est. 20 sec, than came to a rest at 200°. The 20sec-effect of pulling to one side remained, the dipping has nearly disappeared.

After selecting "Turn off all weather settings" these effects disappeared and returned after switching wind smoothing on again.

It seems a bit, as if the actions of wind smoothing interfere somehow with the controls of the aircraft. Basically, DG808S has no aileron trim at all, still you can effect it by pressing the associated keys.

I hope this information helps you along to find the problem.

best regards,

Peter

Edit: Sry, I'm not sure If I basically meant the 4.127 wind smoothing thread.

[jannier]

So far as I can tell, all three aircraft have this 1 second fluctuations. A better word might be pulsating.

Pete this is exactly the same I am trying to convey to you in my thread.

And as mentioned I saw with weatherset2 that when Cloud Layer info was diplayed the pulsating stopped.

Weahterset2 Cloud info= no pulsating

Weatherset2 NO Cloud info = pulsating

Jannie

[Pete Dowson]

Weahterset2 Cloud info= no pulsating

Weatherset2 NO Cloud info = pulsating

I think that's a red herring, an irrelevant coincidence. As far as I can see, now, with further testing, the wind smoothing isn't working.

I'm trying to find other ways, but I don't hold out much hope at present. :-(

Pete

[Pete Dowson]

I'm trying to find other ways, but I don't hold out much hope at present. :-(

I've just uploaded FSUIPC 4.218, available via the FSX Downloads announcement. I think I've made improvements to the smoothing, but I have no idea if they'll fix the problems you all see. Could you try it and let me know, please?

Regards

Pete

[blueridgeflyer]

I'm trying to find other ways, but I don't hold out much hope at present. :-(

I've just uploaded FSUIPC 4.218, available via the FSX Downloads announcement. I think I've made improvements to the smoothing, but I have no idea if they'll fix the problems you all see. Could you try it and let me know, please?

Regards

Pete

I dont want to jinx it, but with the PMDG744X the results are OPS CHECK GOOD. No problems to report in my 30min flight up to FL250. AFCS checks good as well. Nice work.

Ryan

[cshark172]

Hello Pete,

Same results here with the PMDG 744x and 4.218 smoothing. I just tried the climb out with the flight I was using earlier, and had no problems with HDG hold, and the winds were fairly smooth from surface to 34000'. A couple of abrupt direction changes, but these were at the wind layers 18000 and 24000. I was watching Weatherset2 and the winds were consistent with what it was reporting. Those layers had 30 degree direction changes and the wind direction jumped immediately at the wind layer altitude. The wind speed was smoothed out all the way up. I was very happy with the results compared to no smoothing.

Thanks for all your efforts,

Kyle