KSAN thrill ride Tower 3D Pro

[AirborneCDS]

Wow, I need a drink,

  I decided to take the plunge on KSAN after reading that an update was out for Tower Pro.  I bought it and RC and installed.  I tested with fewest a/c setting and decided to edit a few files.  I added UPS to the cargo terminal and changed Federal Express (spoken) to FED EX.  I wanted to test the cargo flights so I (assumed) that an early morning time (0 dark 30) would gain some of these--I set to maximum.  Well, I forgot SAN doesn't operate at night, generally, so the time skipped to 0600 and my nightmare rush began.  I was having such a blast I kept going way beyond my skills at this new airfield and paid the price.  I had to delete two a/c (I hate that) because the cargo area only has one way in and another because I failed to vacate the runway in time due to a plane stuck at a taxiway-my fault not the sim.  Anyways, hats off to the sim maker--this will likely be my favorite field to control.  Oh, and watching the a/c come in over the threshold is awesome with the waiting departure line across the way.  Great stuff!!

  Chris

[Avwriter]

Just tried the updated KSAN.  I agree its a major improvement.  Arrivals now land farther down the runway, which is a big help for when I forget to give then exit instructions.

[FeelThere_Vic]

Chris,

 

Could you please post your UPS edit? I'd try it out :)

 

Vic

 

[AirborneCDS]

TowerKsanAirlines.txtksan_terminalNEW.txt  Vic, I just added UPS to the terminal file and changed how Fed Ex and UPS are spoken in the airlines file (attached).  The flights were already in the schedule.  Chris

[FeelThere_Vic]

Thank you!

 

[ttjager]

FYI guys:

The "commuter terminal" at SAN has been closed for over a year.  All the airlines that are assigned to that terminal in the ksan_terminal.txt file should be assigned to Terminal_2 if you're looking for an accurate simulation of ground traffic at the field.

That will probably elicit a bunch of groans, as it really makes handling 2-way traffic on BRAVO almost impossible in this sim if you're running a heavy traffic count.  In real life, aircraft rarely if ever pushback all the way onto BRAVO.  Instead, they push to a hole in the alley and wait for clearance to taxi onto BRAVO.  

Additionally, most aircraft do not exit 27 at B5.  In fact, a B737 couldn't land in the 27 touchdown zone and make it off by B5 under almost any circumstances.  It's only 2,300 feet from the 27 Runway Aiming Point Marking to B5 (3,350 feet to B6 and 4,400 feet to B7).  In most cases, SWA has to stand on the brakes to make B6 and usually exits B7 for the easy turn directly into Terminal 1.  That is a huge benefit, as it allows them to taxi e/b on BRAVO instead of against the regular flow.  

For that reason, in real life, it is very common for Terminal 2 arrivals to be instructed to "roll-out to" B9 or even B10.  Thankfully, you can do that with 3dPro, but at the expense of those aircraft taxiing very slowly to the end.  Meanwhile, you have someone in position with another one on short final.  In real life, SAN tower frequently instructs the landing aircraft to "Expedite to BRAVO-9.  Traffic in position.  Traffic on short final."  Those aircraft don't simply taxi down the runway at normal taxi speed.  They do their best to exit ASAP.  

Unfortunately, I frequently end-up deleting an arrival just before it causes a head-on issue near the alley.  I hate doing that, but in real life the conflict wouldn't occur.  

I really love this sim, but I usually like to "work" LAX.  I know less about it, so I don't get frustrated when situations are not completely realistic.  I am very familiar with procedures at SAN.  That said, I'm really happy to have this program.  Thanks to all involved.

TJ

[AirborneCDS]

It would be nice for faster taxi speeds when necessary-esp on a landing rollout.  Also the command, "Cleared for Immediate Takeoff" would be very useful.  I have listened to the Tower at KSAN quite a bit on Live ATC and it is very impressive how they work there and also quite reasonable to NOT expect the sim to function the same.  Still, this is a great effort and fun.  Edit: And check out the youtube videos of a/c landing at KSAN on 27--wow, that is a rush!

  cheers, Chris

[AirborneCDS]

One more nit pick.  It would be great to see cargo carriers without windows.  Not sure if this would be a Feelthere or Nyerges Design task. 

[futureboy]

7 hours ago, AirborneCDS said:

One more nit pick.  It would be great to see cargo carriers without windows.  Not sure if this would be a Feelthere or Nyerges Design task. 

Definitely probably Nyerges the maker of Real Traffic.

Marketing opportunity for Federal Express and UPS - Put windows on cargo planes so they can charge extra if you want your package to have a window view or exit row :)

RickyJ

[AirborneCDS]

RJ, lol.  Yeah, I thought so.  I mentioned it on their FB page. 

[ttjager]

I really think the aircraft in the KSAN files could use a small tweak in runway roll-out distance for some more realism.  It should be comparable to the distances you see at LAX.  After all, with the exception of the extra wide bodies, they are the same aircraft landing a sea level airport.  

Not bitching at all . . . just pointing-out.  

Thanks again for the wonderful product.

TJ

[FeelThere_Vic]

This is a question to Nyerges Design, however aircraft performances are independent from the airport. They will land the same distance on any airport.

[ttjager]

Here is another real-life challenge you can do when you’re running SAN.  Determine at some point, that you have a EFC time for every flight enroute to a certain region.  For example, all departures headed for the NORCAL Bay Area have a 20 minute wheels-up flow control time beyond the time first stamped on their strip.  This happens ALL the time in real life.  You can pick extra flow times to LAS, PHX, LAX, etc.  These locations are such short flights from SAN, they will usually hold those aircraft on the ground awaiting their slot time.  You could just leave them at the gate, but that’s not any fun, and it’s not realistic.  Those gates are needed by inbound flights, so the departures need to push.

At SAN, the tower uses taxiway DELTA and BRAVO-1 as the “penalty box”.  You can do the same by giving the following instruction, “SWA1520, runway 27, taxi via BRAVO-DELTA-BRAVO-1.”  Ideally, you would be able to tell them to hold short of BRAVO, but the sim won’t accept it.  So, once they turn the corner onto BRAVO-1 from DELTA and just before BRAVO, you have to tell the lead aircraft to “hold position”.  Any following aircraft will automatically stop behind them.  But be careful.  Once they’re stopped, you need to tell them to hold position too or they will roll all the way up to 27 once the aircraft in front of them moves.  Meanwhile, the other non-held aircraft will taxi right by on BRAVO and waive to those in the “penalty box”.  It’s fun and very realistic.  This happens dozens of times every day at SAN in real life.

Another sadistic thing to do is switch to runway 9.  This is fairly rare at SAN, but it does happen.  It was done several times recently with all the heavy rains we had.  Because of tall buildings on short final to 27, the runway is only served by a localizer and GPS approach.  There is not ILS to 27 (no glideslope, so higher minimum descent altitudes).  Runway 9 has a CAT-I ILS approach.  So, when the weather goes below 27 approach minimums, they switch to the ILS 9.  This also occurs during visual approaches when we have strong Santana winds from the east.

The problem is many airliners at gross weight cannot take-off with a balanced field on runway 9 and still meet the ODP minimum climb.  So, they depart on runway 27 with arrivals using runway 9!!!!  That’s a load of fun for you.  Of course, in real life the tower coordinates with SOCAL TRACON to create large holes in the arrival stream, so they can launch the opposite direction departures.  Give that a try and see if you need a drink!

TJ

[Avwriter]

Thanks for the write up TJ.  I really appreciate the local insight, and will definitely give those ideas a try. 

[BillA]

Has anyone got the landing airplanes to exit quicker with any of these commands?

CALLSIGN, TAKE NEXT AVAILABLE EXIT ON LEFT (the airplane will try to exit in the first available exit in the requested direction)
CALLSIGN, TAKE NEXT AVAILABLE EXIT ON RIGHT (the airplane will try to exit in the first available exit in the requested direction)

or

CALLSIGN, EXIT AT TAXIWAY XXXX (the airplane will try to exit at the named taxiway)
CALLSIGN, VACATE RUNWAY LEFT ONTO TAXIWAY XXXX (the airplane will try to exit at the named taxiway towards the requested direction)
CALLSIGN, VACATE RUNWAY RIGHT ONTO TAXIWAY XXXX (the airplane will try to exit at the named taxiway towards the requested direction)

Do they need to be told this when on final? or when they just landed on the runway because they dont work for me...usually get "unable"

 

[Avwriter]

The "next available" command has never worked for me, at least not with the button commands.  The other, more specific ones do work, but only if the aircraft is able to do so comfortably, which varies by aircraft, and even then seems somewhat randomized as to whether or not it makes the requested early turn off (same is true real life; sometimes a pilot lands a bit longer than planned etc.).  I find these commands more consistently useful for getting aircraft to extend their landing rolls rather than reducing them.  That is, at KSAN if I have a Delta or American flight landing on 27, then I will have the plane go to the last or next to last exit so that it does not conflict with other ground traffic heading to the other end of the runway.

[BillA]

Good point Avwriter.  Will give it a go

[FeelThere_Vic]

They will not exit quicker. They are already taking the first possible exit based on their flight dynamics so they can't exit sooner than their landing length. 

[AirborneCDS]

1 hour ago, FeelThere said:

They will not exit quicker. They are already taking the first possible exit based on their flight dynamics so they can't exit sooner than their landing length. 

And that is fine for me. But, I do not like it that they almost stop-or certainly slow down quite a bit- after landing when I have an a/c on final right behind them.  This makes exiting at the further taxiways, B8 and B9 much more dicey. 

[futureboy]

The landings have never bothered me, I just let them stack up on the runway. I have not incurred any penalties for this. It's trying to get a plane to takeoff before the next plane lands and the first plane is still on the runway that makes it real tricky at KSAN.  Fortunately you will get a 10nm separation in the landing aircraft to send the plane to B10 and exit, and have a plane be able to takeoff before the next plane lands.

RickyJ

[AirborneCDS]

Yeah, you might not get dinged in this sim,  but if you let a plane land with one still on the runway you would be looking for a new job real quick.  I've lost points trying to time the departures and landings and missing by just a few feet.  That's frustrating but also rewarding when you time it perfectly.   

[futureboy]

On 3/20/2017 at 11:51 AM, BillA said:

CALLSIGN, TAKE NEXT AVAILABLE EXIT ON LEFT (the airplane will try to exit in the first available exit in the requested direction)
CALLSIGN, TAKE NEXT AVAILABLE EXIT ON RIGHT (the airplane will try to exit in the first available exit in the requested direction)

This comes in handy for cargo planes landing on KJFK 31R. You can tell them to take the next exit on the right, instead of the default exit which is on the left.

RickyJ

[crbascott]

I've just started playing around with KSAN and was curious about intersection departures. Do commercial aircraft normally taxi the full length for 27 departures? I've only flown out of San Diego one time and that is what we did. Do they ever take off from D? What about GA aircraft? Do they taxi full length or do they normally take off from one of the intersections?

Thanks!

FYI - I like to listen to LiveATC in order to educate myself and simulate as realistically as possible. But they only have Tower for KSAN so ground traffic is something of a mystery at the moment.  

 

  

[BillA]

I grew up in San Diego and lived there most of my life until 2005.  Yes most of the time they taxi all the way to the end for takeoff on 27.  I think there was one time I saw a Cessna or another small plane take off from the taxi way before the the end of the runway.

 

On a side note the British Airways 747-400 and B777 would taxi to runway 27 via B, B6, cross runway 27, C6, C, C3 cross runway 27, B

[ttjager]

BillA is correct.  About 99% of the time, all SAN departures go all the way to the end.  One notable exception is an occasional RJ departure to LAX.  They almost always have flow times to LAX.  Sometimes there will be a stack of departures holding short of 27 with an LAX-bound RJ taxiing eastbound on BRAVO towards DELTA.  Sometimes, the tower will give the RJ a clearance to depart runway 27 at DELTA, so they can bypass the line at the end of BRAVO and make their flow time.

Another interesting thing that happens at SAN involves extra large airliners taxiing from terminal 2 to runway 27.  Right now, British Airways has one 747 that departs non-stop to LHR and Japan Airways has a 787 to goes non-stop to HND.  Those are the only two departures this applies to right now, but those aircraft are too wide to taxii full-length eastbound on BRAVO to the end of 27.  So ground will taxi them BRAVO BRAVO-6 CROSS RYW27 CHARLIE-6 CHARLIE CHARLIE-1 to 27.  Interesting situation that only happens twice each day, but you can always make a little old SWA 737 do the same thing just for the practice :)  .

Have fun!

TJ