Eaglesoft Citation X 2 with FSUIPC.

[XH558]

Hi All.

I have just purchased this aircraft after waiting for it for a while.

I noticed that they have implemented a form of FADEC if FS9.1 for this aircraft, and this is where I seem to be having some difficulties and wondered if I can do anything about this.

I typically used page 3 of the joystick calibration after checking the box on page 1 to map to all 4 throttles. Then I calibrated the throttle all the way forward, then all the way back. Now at this point I then moved the Saitek X52 throttle forward about a quarter of the way from the rear, and then hit the button in FSUIPC for the reverse section.

What this then gave me in all of my FS aircraft was the use of the throttle completely, but upon landing I simply closed the throttle to the three-quarters back point which in turn closed fully the throttles on the a/c, then if I carried on moving the throttle all the way to the back I got reverse thrust on all engines.

I have been doing this for years and it works brilliantly, well, until now that is.

The guy's over at Eaglesoft say that I cannot do this, and that I have to calibrate the throttles in FSUIPC using the setting for one throttle on page 1 of the calibration otherwise the throttles on the Citation won't work. This is correct because I have tried it.

What I would like to know is, can I do this in some way like I was able to do so before where I was able to have reverse thrust at the rear of the throttles, but use it with the Eaglesoft aircraft.

Thank you for any suggestions in this quest.

Steve.

[Pete Dowson]

What I would like to know is, can I do this in some way like I was able to do so before where I was able to have reverse thrust at the rear of the throttles, but use it with the Eaglesoft aircraft.

I hope some other Citation users will come to help you here, because I don't know. From the response you got from Eaglesoft it sounds like they actively intercept the generic single throttle and use that, which really prohibits having reverse on the same lever.

Of course you can retain your existing throttle setup for other aircraft and have the Citation done differently by making the assignments and calibrations in FSUIPC aircraft or profile specific. But that doesn't help with the Citation.

Regards

Pete

[XH558]

Hi Peter.

Yes, I was somewhat confused as to what they had done etc, they must have their reasons for doing this but I can't seem to identify what they are and why they have done this in a manner like this.

I suppose this is what they mean when they say "accurate" FADEC in FS via FSUIPC etc.

But, they did not provide any relevant details as to what you would have to do in order to get it working. it has taken me three days of forum posting to find out about mapping the throttle through "page 1 only"

As I explained above, I have been using your program flawlessly for years in the manner I explained, but now this add-on a/c has come on the scene where I have to re-program FSUIPC each time I want to use it on the Citation, or do it again when I want to use one of the other 20 or so add-on a/c I use.

Thank you anyway Peter for having a look at it for me.

[Pete Dowson]

now this add-on a/c has come on the scene where I have to re-program FSUIPC each time I want to use it on the Citation, or do it again when I want to use one of the other 20 or so add-on a/c I use.

No, don't do that. Make the assignment and calibration settings for the Citation aircraft-specific. Then FSUIPC will switch to them only when you load that aircraft, and you'll still automatically have your other settings for the other 20 or so.

You might also investigate the Profile facilities I added for this in recent updates -- see the Updates announcement. There's a user guide for profiles in the downloadable Zip.

Regards

Pete

[XH558]

Pete.

You Da Man :D

It worked like a charm, just like you said it would.

Thank you very much for your help.

I have even posted this result on the Eaglesoft forums so others can see how it was resolved through your expertise.

Now go and spend some quality time with that Fantastic Train Layout you have in that upstairs room (if you still have it that is)

[Pete Dowson]

Now go and spend some quality time with that Fantastic Train Layout you have in that upstairs room (if you still have it that is)

No, the model railway is in a downstairs room, at the back of the house. I have still to find time to re-program that, it is still run through an Amiga!

The upstairs room houses my 737NG and Piper Arrow III cockpits! ;-)

Regards

Pete

[n4gix]

What I would like to know is, can I do this in some way like I was able to do so before where I was able to have reverse thrust at the rear of the throttles, but use it with the Eaglesoft aircraft.

I hope some other Citation users will come to help you here, because I don't know. From the response you got from Eaglesoft it sounds like they actively intercept the generic single throttle and use that, which really prohibits having reverse on the same lever.

Of course you can retain your existing throttle setup for other aircraft and have the Citation done differently by making the assignments and calibrations in FSUIPC aircraft or profile specific. But that doesn't help with the Citation.

Regards

Pete

Just to be clear, one CAN use the multiple throttle facility to have separate L and R throttles. What is not supported is the "reverse thrust" feature. As mentioned already, one would need to create a named profile specifically for this aircraft, and would need to edit the Citation_X.ini file to specify 2 throttle lever operation.

The reason Ed uses the calibrated output from FSUIPC is simply because the FADEC algorithims require, consistent, predictable, and jitter-free values for throttle lever position(s).

The reason reverse is not supported is likewise simple. How could the algorithims used know what specific value to use for IDLE, were the user allowed to set it arbitrarily? :lol:

[Pete Dowson]

The reason reverse is not supported is likewise simple. How could the algorithims used know what specific value to use for IDLE, were the user allowed to set it arbitrarily? :lol:

Only the INPUT values are set "arbitrarily"! The calibrated output value, the one sent to FS, for IDLE, is ALWAYS exactly zero! Reverse thrust is -ve, forward thrust is +ve. it really is that simple. That is exactly the way the "THROTTLEn_SET" controls in FS work -- there is no reverse range on the "AXIS_THROTTLE " controls anyway.

I've no idea what the authors of this aircraft have done, but the problem is certainly nothing to do with uncalibrated "arbitrary" values! :shock:

regards

Pete

[WarpD]

Oh... the actual issue is even more nefarious than one might think.

There's absolutely no way to know whether it's a single joystick throttle or a dual. There's absolutely no way to know if they're using the primary, single joystick throttle calibration or using the individual throttles calibration. In fact, there's absolutely no way to know if they actually have a joystick throttle or not.

In short, since I can't detect their hardware configuration and how it's set up within FS and FSUIPC... I had to make a decision and a choice.

It is, what it is.

[Pete Dowson]

In short, since I can't detect their hardware configuration and how it's set up within FS and FSUIPC... I had to make a decision and a choice.

Why not simply act upon the values supplied for the throttle POST processing -- i.e. actual controls (key events) FS uses for the same things? Why worry about where or how it is arranged that they arrive or processed, it's the final values which do arrive which matter, surely?

Regards

Pete

[WarpD]

Because FADEC doesn't use a linear input/output process.

The FADEC system has a 'target N-value' that it will seek and hold based on the physical throttle handle position and altitude. To provide this behavior I disable FS's input via FSUIPC and then based on physical throttle value from FSUIPC I set the FS throttle axis so that it hits the correct 'target N-value'. Of course, all of this requires they have a registered version of FSUIPC to work... but it does work.

[Pete Dowson]

The FADEC system has a 'target N-value' that it will seek and hold based on the physical throttle handle position and altitude. To provide this behavior I disable FS's input via FSUIPC and then based on physical throttle value from FSUIPC I set the FS throttle axis so that it hits the correct 'target N-value'. Of course, all of this requires they have a registered version of FSUIPC to work... but it does work.

Yes, but that's only the same sort of thing as Fly-by-Wire for Airbuses. Why not use the calibrated final values for the throttles -- i.e. the values which would have been written to the throttle offsets if you hadn't disconnected them? They are provided in offsets 332E - 3336.

Regards

Pete

[WarpD]

I am reading 0x332E for single throttle as calibrated on page 1 of your joystick calibration interface.

I am reading 0x3330 for left and 0x3332 for right as calibrated on page 4(?) of your joystick calibration interface.

I am disabling the FS throttle via 0x310A.

I am setting the left throttle via 0x088C and the right throttle via 0x0924.

The issue is knowing whether the user is using the page 1 calibration interface or not. There is nothing that tells me if they have a single throttle or dual.

[Pete Dowson]

The issue is knowing whether the user is using the page 1 calibration interface or not. There is nothing that tells me if they have a single throttle or dual.

Right, so isn't the answer to just operate as FS does, i.e. obey the last one you see change each time? Ignore axes until they change. Then it doesn't matter.

Regards

Pete

[WarpD]

Bumping this thread...

We have a customer who owns a PFC Cirrus II console. It does not work with our FADEC implementation at all. My guess is that the PFC is not defined as a joystick under the normal DirectX conventions and thus doesn't interface like a typical game controller would.

I have listed in a previous post in this thread the offsets I read/write. Is it possible to get the PFC systems to work with our FADEC code? I simply haven't the income level to go purchasing a PFC system just to make it work. :(

[Pete Dowson]

We have a customer who owns a PFC Cirrus II console. It does not work with our FADEC implementation at all. My guess is that the PFC is not defined as a joystick under the normal DirectX conventions and thus doesn't interface like a typical game controller would.

Correct. All the analogue axes on the Serial Port PFC devices (as opposed to their USB devices) are connected to a controller board which supplies all switches and axes in PFC's own protocol, which is handled, for use in FS, by my PFC modules. However, they operate via FSUIPC, and are thence handled in the same way.

In this message you talk about DirectX connections and interfacing like a typical game controller, which sounds as if you must be reading values from Windows directly, and then you go back to talking about the offsets in FSUIPC which are/can be used for Airbus-style fly-by-wire, which involves NOT reading things direct from Windows, but reading things from FSUIPC offsets.

Sorry, but either you are confused or you aren't explaining yourself well enough, I fear.

As long as you aren't reading the axes via DirectX or the Windows "joy" API, but getting them either by intercepting FS's axis controls, as FSUIPC does, or by using FSUIPC offsets, as you implied but then seemed to contradict, then, yes, of course it is possible. The methods provided for interception of axes by FSUIPC will work with PFC devices controlled by my PFC modules because all they do is send the values using the "KEY_THROTTLEn_SET" controls into FS. If you intercept those, you'll be fine, or if you are using the FSUIPC facilities you say, they should be fine too.

I've just verified that, again, here.

The throttles on the Cirrus are Throttles 1, 2, 3, and 4 (depending on which quadrant they are using, they have from 1 to 4 separate throttle levers). All can be independently disconnected by bits 2^6, 2^7 in offset 310A (throttles 1 and 2), and 2^6, 2^7 in offset 310B (throttles 3 and 4), and the values that they would have supplied can be read (whether inhibited or not) in offsets 3330 to 3336, exactly as documented.

There is really no difference in this between the PFC devices and any devices with multiple throttle levers, such as the Saitek or GoFlight quadrants. I suspect you may be chasing down the wrong road in your search for a solution to whatever problem you have? Perhaps you are assuming all users only have one throttle lever and so are only dealing with the single generic all-engine throttle?

Regards

Pete

[WarpD]

Pete,

The point regarding DirectX is that the PFC hardware wouldn't show up in a Control Panel::Game Controllers listing. Or more simply, pretty much any controller that's visible to DirectX has worked... but this PFC isn't.

I am reading the offsets as explained earlier yet a customer states that it does not work with their PFC Cirrus II.

For a single throttle I watch 0x332E, for independant throttles I watch 0x3330 and 0x3332.

[Pete Dowson]

The point regarding DirectX is that the PFC hardware wouldn't show up in a Control Panel::Game Controllers listing. Or more simply, pretty much any controller that's visible to DirectX has worked... but this PFC isn't.

Okay -- though i don't see that as relevant. It most certainly has nothing to do with any FSUIPC offsets, nothing whatsoever.

For a single throttle I watch 0x332E, for independant throttles I watch 0x3330 and 0x3332.

And how do you know which? Shouldn't you watch all?

It is easy enough for you to test if you have even only a single thrlttle. Simply assign it to Throttle 1 instead of the generic Throttle. Maybe you are simply not recognising that the user has twin throttles and you are not looking in the right places?

Regards

Pete

[airforce2]

Hi Ed;

My suggestion is, in addition for testing for presence of a DirectInput throttle axis, to also test the single byte FSUIPC offset 0x3373 for a nonzero value, which indicates that a PFC control system is present and active. My understanding of your control methodology leads me to believe it will work unmodified with the PFC systems, as the PFC throttle control inputs will be present at offsets 3330 and 3332 no differently than a joystick axis, and right where you watch for them in your code now.

There is a fairly sizeable group of us that use these (pricey) high-end flight controls, so the small effort to include us in your coding considerations will result in enough sales to make it worth doing.

Regards

Bob Scott

Colonel, USAF (ret)

ATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V

Colorado Springs, CO

[zero-7]

Hello,

 

I'm running into a different problem, which I hope you can help me with.

 

Using: FSUIPC 3.999z8 (FS9) with the Eaglesoft Citation X 2.0 (FS9) on windows 7 x64 system with microsoft sidewinder joystick (single throttle)

 

Problem: After installing and registration of FSUIPC the engines only spool up to a max N1 of 83% at full throttle, so there's hardly enough take-off power...

               If I delete all FSUIPC files in the 'modules'-folder this problem is not there; engines spooling up to 100% and giving full thrust.

               In both registered and demo-version i've had the N1=50% idle problem which I've solved by changing the "AxesWrongRange=No" - line to Yes

 

What is causing this problem and what can I do about it?

Of course I want to use the full FSUIPC program that's why I purchased a licence but having hardly enough thrust to take-off is dissapointing...

 

 

Thanx Bert

 

 No FSUIPC:  Un-/Registered: 

Edited November 18, 2013 by zero-7

[Andydigital]

Eaglesoft support should be able to help you with this issue, I seem to remember reading something similar a few years ago. I don't have this aircraft so cant help you personally, but the issue does sound familiar.

[aua668]

Hi,

 

I fly this plane under FSX. So I can only speak for this version. But what I assume is, that you didn't enter all the necessary inputs in the FMC. Have you went through all pages of the FMC? Didi you get the confirmation question for setting the V-speeds? Have you entered the environmental data for take-off? And how is your loading for the flight? So that bird is not easy to fly. Following the intended procedures is a must. What I think is, that FADEC reduces the power for takeoff maybe because of wrong or missing data. And without FSUIPC you have no FADEC and therefore you are controlling the thrust. And I don't takeoff with 100% - it's always far below.

 

Have a look here too (also far below 100%): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx7VJm6d0Zw

 

 

Rgds

Reinhard

 

[zero-7]

I've contacted ES support and they told me the same as Reinhard. So it was me, having some wrong expectations about the behaviour of FADEC.

 

Thanx all for the help