Steering using steering axis, not rudder [was in topic FSUIPC FSLABS A320 P3Dv4]

[airforce2]

Pete;

  I ran into an issue with the FSL A320 and FSUIPC steering tiller control.  The steering control in the FSL panel sets the nosewheel steering angle as an exponential function of the tiller input, which makes fine control of the nosewheel at steering angles above ~10 deg nearly impossible using the short-throw (~15 deg) twist-grip axis on my T.16000M stick.  I tried using the slope function by assigning the rudder and steering tiller axes as direct to calibration and then setting a negative slope (-4) in the tiller axis calibration to counteract the excessive nonlinearity, but the rub is that apparently the combined tiller/rudder input is being made to the rudder axis and not to the steering axis in P3D.

  I was able to make it work programmatically in my flight control driver by reading the post-calibration tiller value at offset 0C08 and then rewriting that direct to the FS steering set control (66818 via write to offset 3110).  But...it would probably be helpful for others that don't have custom-programmed flight control drivers to be able to send a calibrated steering input to the steering axis rather than the rudder axis.  The FSL Scarebus does its own mixing of the tiller and rudder inputs, and expects the tiller input to come in via the P3D steering control.  Perhaps a special case where MaxSteerSpeed=0 could be used to force no mixing, but still allow a calibrated value to be sent via the direct-to-calibration path to the native steering axis rather than mixed and sent as a rudder input?

Cheers

Bob Scott

[Pete Dowson]

10 minutes ago, airforce2 said:

but the rub is that apparently the combined tiller/rudder input is being made to the rudder axis and not to the steering axis in P3D.

FSUIPC's tiller steering facilty has always used rudder, hence it's automatic reduction of tiller control in facour or normal rudder control as ground speed increases. The steering axis didn't exist when that was added.

12 minutes ago, airforce2 said:

it would probably be helpful for others that don't have custom-programmed flight control drivers to be able to send a calibrated steering input to the steering axis rather than the rudder axis.

Well, possibly an option. Or maybe one assigns to the AXIS STEERING SET control instead of FSUIPC's own control, it could allow calibration for that as well, just ignoring the tiller/rudder link up it would normally apply. Or maybe (but a lot more work) I could add a separate FSUIPC control for "unlinked steering" ... No, i think using the FS control assignment should do.

This would presumably also apply to FSUIPC4 (FSX/P3D1-3) not just FSUIPC5 (P3D4)?

I'll put it on the list for looking at when I get a moment. Might not be for a few weeks yet. If I can't get to it next week it will get delayed whilst I go to Spain to visit my sone and his wife.

Pete

 

 

[airforce2]

OK, Pete...no hurries, no worries. 

I have things functioning well with my programmatic solution, but suspect other FSUIPC users may find themselves wanting something like this as a better way to work NWS in the 'bus.  I suspect FSX/P3D v2-3 users of the FSL A320 might also find it useful, though I have never used this add-on in those platforms because of the heavy VAS footprint on a 32-bit sim.

Have fun in Spain!

Cheers

Bob Scott

[Pete Dowson]

Hi Bob, and others interested in this.

[Note that I split this subject off from the original thread as it will be of more general interest, I think, than just for the FSL A320]

I've been doing tests, and I really don't think i need to make any changes. well, possibly one, a parameter default change, but I'm not keen to do that. Let me explain:

The way FSUIPC works to allow steering tiller and rudder use to be gradually moved from tiller to pedals at higher ground speeds (and only whilst on the ground, of course), was and remains by having both assigned and calibrated in FSUIPC. And it sends Rudder controls for both (because the steering control is relatively new).

But this only applies if the assignment for the Tiller is to the FSUIPC-added steering tiller control, not to assignments to the FS "steering set" control.

The Steering set control can be assigned and calibrated and used independently from the rudder assignment and calibration.

I have, however, noted one oddity with P3D4 (I'm not sure if it applies to earlier versions, but i've never noticed it). When you use the FS steering set control it won't be logged by name even if you have axis logging enabled. It still works, but it seems the default method used by FSUIPC to detect and therefore log this -- by actually requesting that events be intercepted -- does not work using the method FSUIPC sends events by default these days. (It sends them as WM_COMMANDs rather than as events direct to SimConnect. This applies to many controls, in fact, not just Steering set.

Looking in the FSUIPC4 History document I see this:

 

Axis events for axes assigned in FSUIPC4 are now, by default, sent on to FSX via the messaging system (as in
FS9) rather than via priority SimConnect events. This is actually more efficient, and also avoids possible event
priority problems with other add-ons wishing to receive the values. In case this does cause anything a problem, the
change can be reversed by adding:
EventsViaCommands=No
This can be placed in the [General] section to change things by default, or in specific [JoystickCalibration] sections
for specific aircraft or profile changes, or to allow it to be changed during an FS session. The Calibration entry
overrides the default entry.
The Events this refers to are any normal FS control assigned in the Axis Assignments tab.

This was a change made in 4.595d and released in 4.60, and therefore of course brought across to P3D4.  The highlit red part is important, I think, but I don't recall now which other add-ons had problems with it. I have a feeling that the layering of actions by the sim has changed in P3D4, and possibly this parameter could safely be reverted to being off (i.e "No") by default. But at this stage I daren't risk it for fear of spoiing someone's day!

Anyway, in conclusion, it is already possible to solve the steering problem with the CSL A320 and any other affected add-on, by a simply change in how you assign.

Pete

P.S. There appears to be no "Axis Steering Set" control, only "Steering Set". Misleadingly, there is an "Axis Steering Inc Set" control, which does appear to operate as an Axis steering set control. I've no idea why the 'inc' is there! Seems named wrongly, like many of the more historical controls.

P.P.S. In the next release of FSUIPC5 the assignable control lists will be derived live from P3D4.1. The release will not be suitable for 4.0 users. Doing this will allow the complete list of P3D4 controls to be assignable in FSUIPC -- there are many which have been added since i built my lists.

 

 

 

 

[airforce2]

Pete;

  Ah...OK.  In the axis assignment options, "Steering Set" is only available in the "Send to FS as normal axis" drop-down, and "Steering Tiller" is only available in the "Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration" drop-down.  I had the misconception that I had to use the direct-to-calibration method if I wanted to apply calibration to the axis, but a careful re-reading of the docs makes it clear that I don't--calibration is, in fact, also available to axes (including Steering Set) assigned via "send to FS as normal axis". 

Great...that makes it a lot simpler than the gyrations I was going through to make this work.

Cheers

Bob

[Pete Dowson]

2 hours ago, airforce2 said:

  Ah...OK.  In the axis assignment options, "Steering Set" is only available in the "Send to FS as normal axis" drop-down, and "Steering Tiller" is only available in the "Send direct to FSUIPC Calibration" drop-down.  I had the misconception that I had to use the direct-to-calibration method if I wanted to apply calibration to the axis, but a careful re-reading of the docs makes it clear that I don't--calibration is, in fact, also available to axes (including Steering Set) assigned via "send to FS as normal axis". 

In fact you can calibrate in FSUIPC even if you assign all your axes in the sim.  The calibration facilities in FSUIPC long preceded any of the assignment facilities, so that's always been the case.

The "direct to" method is simply a slightly more efficient method which bypasses the Sim altogether, and only sends the final calibrated value though. The "send to FS" method simply makes FSUIPC use the original method for  calibrating FS assigned axes, interception of the control as it arrives in the sim, manipulating it, and sending it back.

Pete

 

[Rodrigo Abulafia]

Hi pete,

I guess something similar happend to me; I have upgrade to P3D 4.1 and -although the steering wheel seems to turn right and left- the plane wont turn to neither left or right while trying to taxi on ground.

Have I upload to the latest version of FSUIPC. (5.121b?)

Any clue though? 

Thanks in advanced!

[Pete Dowson]

5 hours ago, Rodrigo Abulafia said:

I guess something similar happend to me; I have upgrade to P3D 4.1 and -although the steering wheel seems to turn right and left- the plane wont turn to neither left or right while trying to taxi on ground.

I'm afraid you give zero information from which to help you!

This is with the FSL A320?
How is it similar?

Are you assigning in P3D or FSUIPC?
What control are you assigning to?
Are you calibrating in FSUIPC?
Does it work (to steer) using default aircraft?

Pete

 

[Rodrigo Abulafia]

Hi Pete, 

Thanks for the fast answer. Let me provide you more information:

- Happens with every airplane in P3D

- I am using P3D 4.1 and the issue arised when upgraded to 4.1 (was working ok with version 4.023)

- I am using FSUIPC version 5.121b

- Indeed (I have also installed FSX Steam Edition) works ok

- The odd thing is the I DO see the steering wheel turning right and left but the aircraft remains straight or slightly to the left/right

- I have CH SimYoke and I have assigned a knob to be used as the rudder trim, which, has been working perfectly for years.

Any help would be more than gratefull!

[Pete Dowson]

26 minutes ago, Rodrigo Abulafia said:

Happens with every airplane in P3D

So it isn't related to the subject of this thread. you are really in the wrong place.

27 minutes ago, Rodrigo Abulafia said:

I have CH SimYoke and I have assigned a knob to be used as the rudder trim, which, has been working perfectly for years.

Is this relevant in some way?

You answered several things which i didn't ask, details which you gave in your first post, but there are still three relevant questions you haven't answered at all! i.e.

Are you assigning in P3D or FSUIPC?
What control are you assigning to?
Are you calibrating in FSUIPC?

Pete

 

[Rodrigo Abulafia]

Hi Pete,

Sorry for missing, please find attached my answwers

 

Are you assigning in P3D or FSUIPC? YES
What control are you assigning to? Rudder Trim
Are you calibrating in FSUIPC? Yes, as well

Also, let me tell you that for more tha +15 yers (FS2004, FS9, FSX, FSX Steam & P3D All versions) I have been using FSUIPC all previous versions and have never came across with this issue,

Do my answers make sense?

Thanks again!

cheers

[Pete Dowson]

7 minutes ago, Rodrigo Abulafia said:

Are you assigning in P3D or FSUIPC? YES
What control are you assigning to? Rudder Trim

Er, oh dear. Rudder trim is NOT a steering control!!! Even if you used it okay before, You should NOT. It is what it says, a trim control, for trimming the rudder, for correctly an out of trim rudder, or, for example, so that flying in the air is made easier if you have an engine failure and have to fly permanently pushing the rudder. In other words the same sort of use as elevator trim to relieve pressure on the yoke.

For steering you can use STEERING SET, as described earlier in this thread (did you not read it before adding to it?), or RUDDER. You can assign to AXIS RUDDER SET in the FS control list, or RUDDER in the "direct to FSUIPC calibration" list. If you want gradual transfer from steering tiller to pedals you use FSUIPC's "direct to" Rudder for both controls, and calibrate both. But P3D supports Steering directly with Steering Set, so there's really no need.

You should also make sure that the auto-rudder option is disabled in P3D's options.

Pete

 

 

[Rodrigo Abulafia]

ey Pete,

Thanks for taking the case and help me with it. I will try later what you´ve set, but again, the odd thing is that the steering wheel turns R & L and the airplane doesn´t. Do you think that problem might me solved with that stuff you´ve wrote? and if so, why have been till now working and with the update to 4.1 not. 

thanks again!

cheers

R

[Pete Dowson]

2 minutes ago, Rodrigo Abulafia said:

I will try later what you´ve set, but again, the odd thing is that the steering wheel turns R & L and the airplane doesn´t.

That's a function of the aircraft visual modelling. It isn't necessarilty related to the actual simulation mechanisms.

3 minutes ago, Rodrigo Abulafia said:

why have been till now working and with the update to 4.1 not. 

That's more a question for L-M. Sorry.

Pete

 

[Rodrigo Abulafia]

Pete: Ok // Will test those stuff and came back to you. Thanks million again!

cheers

[Rodrigo Abulafia]

Hi Pete,

Have I try everything you´ve described, and unfortunatelly nothing changed. The Airplanes remains without taxing right or left.

At this point I don´t see much rather than reinstalling everything.

Any clue from there?

thanks again the all the support given

[Rodrigo Abulafia]

Good news!

The problem is caused by EZDOK, nothing to do with FSUIPC, but, It is a good time for calibrating my FSYOKE via FSUIPC :)

Thanks again for the patience and the support.

cheers!

[Pete Dowson]

6 hours ago, Rodrigo Abulafia said:

The problem is caused by EZDOK, nothing to do with FSUIPC

So EZDOK is not yet compatible with P3D4.1?

Pete

 

[Rodrigo Abulafia]

Yes it is, but you have to constantly check for the updates in EZDOK Forum and install the updates. Never thought that EZDOK will block de rudder trim functionality.

cheers!

[vadriver]

pete

I would like to ask if you have any "revisions" to your notes above following the update to P3D43 & fsupic5132 .... & in particular with a "favourite" (& I believe yours) the pmdg's ngx.

 In FSX & now P3D43, I've preferred to use "fsuipc direct to" for assigning a tiller (twist) axis on a LPro3D & the rudder to (Saitek) pedals along with MaxSteerSpeed=-60 .... but lament the "nuisance" of not seeing the correct animations inside (LDu Sys) & outside the aircraft for a controls check before taxi (turning the tiller moves the rudder !!).

Assigning the sim's "Steering & Rudder Set" (with EventsViaCommands=No) in/with fsuipc calibration gives correct animations but with no pedal steering limits to 7^o yet some blending at speed towards rudder control.

Thus, I hope you may have some notes to help.

Cheers, John

Edited July 3, 2018 by vadriver
rephrase

[Pete Dowson]

9 hours ago, vadriver said:

& in particular with a "favourite" (& I believe yours) the pmdg's ngx.

Sorry, i don't use any PMDG aircraft at all. In fact they are not even installed. I like their fidelity, but dislike intensely the lack of facilities to implement a proper hardware cockpit around them. At least the iFly impleentation allowed the various subsystems to be distibuted to different computers. However, I have always used 737's with no cockpit panels, and all the subsystems operated externally -- Project Magenta originally (since FS2000), and ProSim737 for the last few years.

9 hours ago, vadriver said:

Assigning the sim's "Steering & Rudder Set" (with EventsViaCommands=No) in/with fsuipc calibration gives correct animations but with no pedal steering limits to 7^o yet some blending at speed towards rudder control.

Thus, I hope you may have some notes to help.

Sorry, I don't know what to suggest except to assign tiller and rudder separately to the P3D controls, instead of using the FSUIPC blending method. If the aircraft handles the controls properly I assume you'd get the same end result. Don't forget that the only reason I did a tiller control based on the rudder was because there was no Steering set control offered by FS98, or even I think, in the original FSX.

Incidentally, is there some siginficance for P3D4.3 and FSUIPC 5.132? Was some special change expected in this area?

Pete

 

[vadriver]

12 hours ago, Pete Dowson said:

Incidentally, is there some siginficance for P3D4.3 and FSUIPC 5.132? Was some special change expected in this area?

pete

thanks ..... no expectations of special change but perhaps hoping now or soon there's an opportunity via simconnect to tweak the pedal nosewheel steering limit to 7^o given my guess that P3D4's tiller & rudder axis are separate though blended at speed (?)

cheers john

Edited July 3, 2018 by vadriver
clarity ?

[Pete Dowson]

7 hours ago, vadriver said:

perhaps hoping now or soon there's an opportunity via simconnect to tweak the pedal nosewheel steering limit to 7

Is that a universal limit, applicable to all aircraft? Because I would have thought that was a function of the add-on aircraft design, not a built-in simulator imposition. A 7 degree steering limit certainly sounds wrong for, say, a 737, which can turn on taxiways in not much more than its own length.

7 hours ago, vadriver said:

given my guess that P3D4's tiller & rudder axis are separate though blended at speed (?)

I really wouldn't know if that is true or not. It seems unlikely, though. Have you tested that guess?

Pete

 

[Thomas Richter]

Hi Pete,

the 7 deg. is the nose wheel steering with full rudder pedal deflection.

Thomas

[Pete Dowson]

1 hour ago, Thomas Richter said:

the 7 deg. is the nose wheel steering with full rudder pedal deflection.

Ah! I see.

Why does the nose wheel turn with rudder deflection in any case, if the rudder is for handling hight airspeeds? You wouldn't want the aircraft careering off the runway during take-off or landing because you need rudder to compensate for a strong cross-wind, or, perhaps more likely, and engine problem on one side.

Pete

.