ILS capture & autothrottle

[Gia Pham]

Hey there. Hope everything went well. I re-download the E170/175 SP2 and trying it out. However, it still having the problem with ILS capture.

 

If there is anything that i should do to make this better, please let me know. IF this plane is going down to CATI minimum like it suppose to, it won't be able to handle that.

 

[Gia Pham]

And why does the autothrottle spool up while the speedbrake is out. The speed is dropping from 280 to 240 but the EPR,N1 is going up while the speed is decreased with the speedbreak is fully out?

 

Please help

[Gia Pham]

@scoobflight Am i expecting some answers soon? 

[FeelThere_Vic]

Sure, please read our sticky topic, we are still waiting information from you.

 

[Gia Pham]

I don't think i would be able to change the title of the thread. However, it's on the E175 product. If you have any further question, please let me know 

[FeelThere_Vic]

Please explain the situation and how one can duplicate the concern. for issues with the FMC this includes details about: route (airport SID routing STAR aiport), cruise altitude, aircraft dry weight (passenger and cargo load), and any non-default FMC settings programmed into the PERFORMANCE pages.

[Gia Pham]

I was doing PHL to DTW with the route MXE PENSY J110 FLIRT BRNAN Q42 PSYKO KOZAR BONZZ2 onto rwy 22L at DTW. Cruise alt at FL340 with the ZFW 59616. https://i.imgur.com/5ilARfq.jpeg .the aircraft can't capture the LOC/GS. Also I did DTW - DCA with LIDDS2 GRIVY BUCKO FRDMM5 route at FL35000 and on the ILS1 at DCA, it won't capture as well. Have to manually hand fly the final approach portion.

 

 

[FeelThere Ariel]

It seems as if you are doing something unusual or something wrong. Maybe your hardware is set up wrong? The plane captures the GS for everyone, we are not aware of such error. Can you please tell us how exactly are you setting up your approach? Based on the images you can actually capture the GS from below, so this should not be a problem. Are you in HDG or NAV mode before you engage APR? 

 

[Matty260191]

Had he pressed the PREV button?

[Gia Pham]

What is the correct way to capture the LOC/GS then. It was on hdg before since the last portion of the STAR is on vector to turn back to final. I switch it to green, turn around and then try to intercept the loc/GS

[Kapetan]

This is something that has been happening with their products for a loooong, long time. They never seem to have addressed it after all these years. Been flying their products since FS9, and neither of their products were ever able to follow glide slope precisely down to minimums, let alone autoland. I was hopeful that it will be fixed with Embraers E-Jets V3, but here we are, same old problem still exists. Even after two service packs. It kinda starts alright after capture, but soon it starts to struggle to stay both on commanded speed(speed is never on point, it goes +/- 5kt the whole time) and glide slope, it gets to the point where somewhere down the path it completely loses it. A/T being as it is in current state doesn't help either, so by the time you're at or around your minimums, you often have one, or sometimes TWO dot deviation on the glide slope. Few days ago I got SINK RATE warning at around 500' AGL while the autopilot is in autoland1 mode, because the glide slope deviated two dot under, and the aircraft chased it nose down into the runway. By the time it started to flare, it was already too late. Landed nose gear first, I believe my VA acars showed around -900 feet/min with an excess of 3+ G of force. That's not an autoland, that's a crash.

And before you ask, I have tried flying it with my joystick unplugged, took off with mouse and went on automation right away, just to rule out hardware issues. Weather was also not a factor that time, because I didn't start Active Sky, again, to rule out that factor as well because I know that aircraft from some other vendors have problems with how wildly Active Sky simulates weather conditions. And lastly, used a default airport for the test. Landing configuration doesn't matter either, happens with both flap 5 and flap full landings.

Don't get me wrong, I still fly your products and enjoy them very much, E-jets V3 flies really, really nice while hand flying, but they are not capable of autolanding which is not a problem when visibility is ok, but winter is coming, and with it, LVPs across the whole Europe. Can't land manually when there's 0 visibility.

I hope this finally gets looked into for the next service pack, if further development is even planned.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Kapetan

[Matty260191]

Use the Prev button and app button or switch to VOR and use the app button

[Gia Pham]

Just did a flight into IAD today. It's the same thing

The controller set up a turn to 330 to join the localizer: 

The LOC capture overshot itself:

 

and then the GS is acted up on it own 

 

And then it went full retard on GS, so i have to take it off AP and fly the plane: 

 

So, can somebody help me out here? or am i just the ONLY one having the problem?

 

It's a basic function of the aircraft that should be fixed a long time ago.

 

[Biggles2010]

3 hours ago, Gia Pham said:

So, can somebody help me out here? or am i just the ONLY one having the problem?

It's a basic function of the aircraft that should be fixed a long time ago.

I use ILS, with E195 v3,  on almost every flight without seeing what you describe.

Two observations though.  First, I see you were intercepting the localizer with a 41 degree offset in light wind conditions. This would increase the chances of overshooting the centreline. Normal practice is to aim for 30 degrees or less as an intercept angle, with some adjustment made in strong crosswind conditions. 

Second, if you suddenly decrease speed setting from 170 to 130  when you have 3 or 4 miles to go,  the throttles obviously have to retard drastically.  Good instrument approaches require good speed control at all stages.  Difficult to comment more without more info like flap settings and weight.

[Matty260191]

4 hours ago, Gia Pham said:

Just did a flight into IAD today. It's the same thing

The controller set up a turn to 330 to join the localizer: 

The LOC capture overshot itself:

 

and then the GS is acted up on it own 

 

And then it went full retard on GS, so i have to take it off AP and fly the plane: 

 

So, can somebody help me out here? or am i just the ONLY one having the problem?

 

It's a basic function of the aircraft that should be fixed a long time ago.

 

You must be the only one I use the E190 ILS every flight almost with no issues.

[Gia Pham]

Honesty, even the CS757/767 can do way better than this. The Feelthere Ejet family aircraft is not terrible, it's decent actually. It's just missing a lot of basic flight dynamics principles. I know this has been tested with many regional pilots that actually flies the airplane. I don't know if it just slipped through the crack of the dev or something, but if we can get the basic flight dynamic down, that would have been awesome.

 

P/S: please import the A.T guy light and sounds into your profile and called it a day since the normal pulsing strobe on this jet is not accurate compared to the RW.

 

5 hours ago, Biggles2010 said:

I use ILS, with E195 v3,  on almost every flight without seeing what you describe.

 

Sorry, please take a picture next time of you flying the 175/190  down to the CATIIa minimum. I want to see it as it never capture the LOC/GS fully down to the minimum.

and Also, enlighten me on the vAPP of the E175/E190. I know you're not supposed to put it down the green dot but what is the average speed supposed to be on flaps full since there are no datalink to communicate what supposed to be your landing speed should be with all of the landing variables.

 

 

[Matty260191]

There are several performance calculators for vspeeds or check out the manual charts for vspeeds. The Flight Dynamics are being fixed and tested currently and I can say for the E190 they have sorted it quite well. Especially the takeoff rotation. The AT and other things were fixed in the last update.

[Biggles2010]

On 11/29/2020 at 3:10 AM, Gia Pham said:

Sorry, please take a picture next time of you flying the 175/190  down to the CATIIa minimum. I want to see it as it never capture the LOC/GS fully down to the minimum.

and Also, enlighten me on the vAPP of the E175/E190. I know you're not supposed to put it down the green dot but what is the average speed supposed to be on flaps full since there are no datalink to communicate what supposed to be your landing speed should be with all of the landing variables.

 

A picture will not help you because the issue seems to be about technique.  Instrument approaches require anticipation and preparation. You will not get a good approach by reacting late and then making drastic changes.  If the software is simulating a real aircraft then it needs to be operated accordingly.  Modern aircraft are slippery and take time to slow down.

Try setting up a practice scenario in the E175 in clear weather conditions without wind. 

Takeoff with about 3000Kg fuel, turn downwind and fly a pattern on A/P at about 2000 ft agl. diverging about 10 degrees from the runway reciprocal, until about 10 miles downwind.  Keep speed at about 170 knots with flaps2.  Check the ILS frequency,  and turn to intercept the localizer at a 30 degree angle, selecting APP.

You should by now have looked up your Vref speed ( flaps 5 in the E175 let's assume 119 knots).   Your Vapp speed will be Vref + 5 + half the headwind component  so with calm winds the Vapp will be 124 knots.  We want to be stable at this speed by 1000 ft agl.

When you pick up the localizer reduce speed to 155.  Reset the heading bug to runway heading and watch the glideslope indicator.  When it starts moving down, go to flaps 3 and reduce to 145 kts.

When you intercept the glideslope,  lower the gear and reduce speed to Vapp +10 (in this case 134 knots). Monitor the  instruments and let things settle. A good indication of stability is when the trim setting stops changing.

Then at around 1500 ft agl, or soon after, select flaps 5 and set your your final approach speed (in this case 124 knots), to allow time for everything to stabilise.  Finally at 50 ft you need to move throttle levers to the idle position.

With experience these procedures can be varied, but this is a good safe way to set up an ILS approach, avoiding panic and over reaction.  Remember all speeds will vary with weight.

Please try this several times at different airfields and let us know if it helps.

[Gia Pham]

Let's see you do it first. So i can follow all your techniques. 

[Triholer]

These are Approach Speeds for the E190:

Clean: 210
Flaps 1 - Speed 180
Flaps 2 - Speed 160
Gear Down - Flaps 3 - Speed 150
Do NOT use Flaps 4 during Approach - It is a Take-Off Setting
Flaps 5 or Flaps Full - Final Approach Speed

[Matty260191]

https://www.youtube.com/c/MattGlover/search?view_as=subscriber&query=E190

[Matty260191]

https://www.youtube.com/c/MattGlover/videos?view_as=subscriber LOOK FOR E190 FOR RECENT ONES

[Biggles2010]

19 hours ago, Triholer said:

These are Approach Speeds for the E190:

Clean: 210
Flaps 1 - Speed 180
Flaps 2 - Speed 160
Gear Down - Flaps 3 - Speed 150
Do NOT use Flaps 4 during Approach - It is a Take-Off Setting
Flaps 5 or Flaps Full - Final Approach Speed

Thanks for the info on not using flaps 4 on approach.  I've edited my previous post accordingly.

I had noticed the flaps 3 to flaps 5 procedure on various real life E-Jet videos, but I had assumed it was down to choice in particular conditions.  Is this procedure just for practicality, to reduce the number of flap selections, or are there other reasons like aircraft behaviour or drag/cost considerations?

[Triholer]

No no, it is actually done for a reason, which to be honest I cannot fully remember, but if you look at the specific settings of the flaps its actually quite interesting to see, that Flaps 4 and 5 are exactly the same - still they are seperated not only but a regular flap detent on the selector, but even a guard, over which you have to lift the flaps selector.

Flaps 0 = Slats 0° & Flaps 0°
Flaps 1 = Slats 15° & Flaps 7°
Flaps 2 = Slats 15° & Flaps 10°
Flaps 3 = Slats 15° & Flaps 20°
Flaps 4 = Slats 25° & Flaps 20°
Flaps 5 = Slats 25° & Flaps 20°
Flaps FULL = Slats 25° & Flaps 37°

[scoobflight]

1 hour ago, Triholer said:

No no, it is actually done for a reason, which to be honest I cannot fully remember, ...

I don't have access to an RW manual at the moment but if memory serves it has to do with some computer logic in the FBW and other systems that the full flaps setting cues up.