[Tower!3D Pro] Manual and question

[Crystal Noir]

Hi there, 

In fine I bought the 3d pro version of the game. However, I think that the manual is some way to light for a beginner. I saw that the 2011 Se manual is more dense and instructive. Do you think I can use it to help me understand some concept or for some commands ? I started read both. Already got some questions, like the heading command. I saw that we can tell pilots a heading (head the airport they want to reach) but I don't understand where I have this information (what is the heading of the airport they want to reach ?) some things like that.

So I wonder may be I could read both documentation and make sort of crossover of informations I will find.

Thank  you for your help.

(Sorry for my english).

[crbascott]

The manual for 2011 is more detailed and probably can provide some help to people playing Pro.

Regarding headings, the tower's responsibility is for the initial departure heading(s) based on the departure procedure filed as part of the flight plan. Getting to the destination airport is the pilot's responsibility along with the help of other ATC along the way.

For more information on departure headings and procedures I'd recommend visiting liveatc.net and listening to actual controllers and check out websites like airnav.com and flightaware.com and view the various charts available. Also, some folks have posted videos of their sessions with Pro - these can be useful training aids too. Watching videos would probably be the easiest way to learn commands and the different nuisances of the sim.

Craig

[Methos]

Personally, the only time I use the heading commands are to direct aircraft out of each others way, for example if there is a go around .. or if controlling a tower with parallel runways that do not have minimum separation.  For example, when using KBOS in 2011, there is a noise abatement procedure for all jet aircraft departing runway 22L to turn left to 140 degrees.  I use that in the event that I have a prop taking off on 22R (not at exactly the same time as you'll get dinged) to widen the space between them - prop stays on 216, jet turns left away to 140.

 

There's so much going on, especially in 3D Pro, that I don't even have time to deal with heading changes, to be honest.  One thing I have noticed .. some aircraft refuse heading changes once airborne.  For example, I once had aircraft coming in at KLAX on 25L while I was departing 7L (wind picked up so a flipped the runways).  I departed 7L and request a turnout to the north (don't remember, maybe 040 degrees?).  Pilot responded, "Negative."  Could be because it had an established departure procedure?

 

One other note: in 3D Pro, aircraft DO use departure procedures and turn onto their proper headings (whatever they may be) but in 2011, they fly runway heading until off the map or until you instruct them to do otherwise.  I would agree that checking airnav.com to see the departure procedures is a good idea (they are about 3/4 down the page) .. will be things like, aircraft departing to the west, north, whatever tend to follow this pattern, etc.  However, since they're already set to that, why would we need to alter their heading?  

 

Sorry, just thinking out loud.  :p  I'm glad the command is there .. just don't see much need for it as tower control is rather limited - pretty much just clear in and clear out, let approach and departure deal with them!  I've got a disaster on my ramp to fix!  Lol

 

Don't know if this has been said either but, checking youtube for REAL ATC could be a help too .. to get a feel for the dialog.  Of course, what you hear there won't be what you must conform to in Tower - either version.  For example, you might hear ground instruct an aircraft, "Delta 929, echo to bravo short of victor" which in Tower would have to be split into 2 commands and altered: "Delta 929 taxi to ramp via echo bravo."  "Delta 929 hold short of taxiway victor."  That's something I'd like to see in the next version, the ability to issue taxi commands without defining the end point .. in the event the ramp is crowded and you need to route them around, like if you have departures and arrivals lined up together and an aircraft has already pushed back to exit the ramp, arrival can't get in but the departures need to keep moving so, taxi the arrival in a loop to come back around when the alleyway is clear.

 

Okay, ramble over .  :p

[crbascott]

10 hours ago, Methos said:

One thing I have noticed .. some aircraft refuse heading changes once airborne.  For example, I once had aircraft coming in at KLAX on 25L while I was departing 7L (wind picked up so a flipped the runways).  I departed 7L and request a turnout to the north (don't remember, maybe 040 degrees?).  Pilot responded, "Negative."  Could be because it had an established departure procedure?

There was a bug with anything less than 100 degrees that has been fixed with the latest SP.

Regarding your other comments I too have noticed that Pro does seem to have some departure procedures in place. However, in real life at JFK for example, there are some quicker turns that aren't quite replicated in the sim. That's about the only time I issue a departure heading. And in reality, at least at LAX and DFW, ATC will more than likely provide a RNAV fix clearance than an actual heading.

As Robert Plant would say, "Ramble On".

 

[mikced76]

When an arriving aircraft call you up, do you normally clear them to land right away. I dont know if this is correct procedure, but when they call me up I tell them "XXX enter final RWY XX" just so they know I am there on the freq but I cant clear them to land so early on in their approach. Normally in real life I guess your would say something like "XXX contuinue approach" and later on when they are closer to the airport and you know its clear you would clear them to land. 

I listen to KSAN live ATC the other day and it actually seem like the controller clears them to land basically right after beeing called upon every time, I dont understand this, if you clear someone to land can you minutes later clear another aircraft to takeoff on the same runway? In other words can you have a cleared for takeoff and cleared to land valid at the same time on the same runway as long as their is correct separation?

Mike   

[Avwriter]

3 hours ago, mikced76 said:

When an arriving aircraft call you up, do you normally clear them to land right away. I dont know if this is correct procedure, but when they call me up I tell them "XXX enter final RWY XX" just so they know I am there on the freq but I cant clear them to land so early on in their approach. Normally in real life I guess your would say something like "XXX contuinue approach" and later on when they are closer to the airport and you know its clear you would clear them to land. 

I listen to KSAN live ATC the other day and it actually seem like the controller clears them to land basically right after beeing called upon every time, I dont understand this, if you clear someone to land can you minutes later clear another aircraft to takeoff on the same runway? In other words can you have a cleared for takeoff and cleared to land valid at the same time on the same runway as long as their is correct separation?

Mike   

This would depend upon the SOP at the particular airport and the given traffic situation.  If its not busy, they might very well clear him in immediately.  An even if there is some traffic, controllers are allowed to issue landing clearances based on a reasonable expectation that the runway will be clear by the time the plane will land.  That is to say they can issue a clearance before the previous landing  aircraft has vacated the runway as long as it appears that the plane will make its assigned exit with time to spare.  After all, if something changes, the controller can still issue a go-around if the need arises (and of course so can the pilot).

 

Andrew

[Methos]

I don't know if this is official procedure or not but what I do is clear all aircraft to land as soon as they call.  Then if I have aircraft queuing for departure on the same runway (or parallel without minimum separation or crosswind runways) I will issue departure commands up until the arriving aircraft cross the 5 mile range circle.  That should ensure that there is plenty of time to clear the runway.

 

Gona have to listen in to some tower ATC now to see what they really do.  Mostly check out ground control, especially Kennedy Steve and the classic ...  :)

 

[Avwriter]

Yeah, that's one of the best compilations out there.

 

Andrew

[Jbuddtv]

On 5/18/2017 at 12:12 AM, Methos said:

Personally, the only time I use the heading commands are to direct aircraft out of each others way, for example if there is a go around .. or if controlling a tower with parallel runways that do not have minimum separation.  For example, when using KBOS in 2011, there is a noise abatement procedure for all jet aircraft departing runway 22L to turn left to 140 degrees.  I use that in the event that I have a prop taking off on 22R (not at exactly the same time as you'll get dinged) to widen the space between them - prop stays on 216, jet turns left away to 140.

 

There's so much going on, especially in 3D Pro, that I don't even have time to deal with heading changes, to be honest.  One thing I have noticed .. some aircraft refuse heading changes once airborne.  For example, I once had aircraft coming in at KLAX on 25L while I was departing 7L (wind picked up so a flipped the runways).  I departed 7L and request a turnout to the north (don't remember, maybe 040 degrees?).  Pilot responded, "Negative."  Could be because it had an established departure procedure?

 

One other note: in 3D Pro, aircraft DO use departure procedures and turn onto their proper headings (whatever they may be) but in 2011, they fly runway heading until off the map or until you instruct them to do otherwise.  I would agree that checking airnav.com to see the departure procedures is a good idea (they are about 3/4 down the page) .. will be things like, aircraft departing to the west, north, whatever tend to follow this pattern, etc.  However, since they're already set to that, why would we need to alter their heading?  

 

Sorry, just thinking out loud.  :p  I'm glad the command is there .. just don't see much need for it as tower control is rather limited - pretty much just clear in and clear out, let approach and departure deal with them!  I've got a disaster on my ramp to fix!  Lol

 

Don't know if this has been said either but, checking youtube for REAL ATC could be a help too .. to get a feel for the dialog.  Of course, what you hear there won't be what you must conform to in Tower - either version.  For example, you might hear ground instruct an aircraft, "Delta 929, echo to bravo short of victor" which in Tower would have to be split into 2 commands and altered: "Delta 929 taxi to ramp via echo bravo."  "Delta 929 hold short of taxiway victor."  That's something I'd like to see in the next version, the ability to issue taxi commands without defining the end point .. in the event the ramp is crowded and you need to route them around, like if you have departures and arrivals lined up together and an aircraft has already pushed back to exit the ramp, arrival can't get in but the departures need to keep moving so, taxi the arrival in a loop to come back around when the alleyway is clear.

 

Okay, ramble over .  :p

Shoot I hand them over to departure before they even get to the 10 mile ring lol 

[Jbuddtv]

I really wish sometimes you could separate ground and tower operations in single player it gets a little crazy to keep up with it all sometimes and normally exp bigger airports it is split 

[crbascott]

2 hours ago, Jbuddtv said:

Shoot I hand them over to departure before they even get to the 10 mile ring lol 

As you should. In real life they are handed off much much sooner.

[crbascott]

2 hours ago, Jbuddtv said:

I really wish sometimes you could separate ground and tower operations in single player it gets a little crazy to keep up with it all sometimes and normally exp bigger airports it is split 

You won't see this in the current version. We'll just have to wait to see what features make the cut for the next version - this was definitely on the wishlist.

[Jbuddtv]

4 minutes ago, crbascott said:

As you should. In real life they are handed off much much sooner.

Is the first ring 5 or 10 miles that's where I usually hand them off 

[MJKERR]

2 hours ago, Jbuddtv said:

Is the first ring 5 or 10 miles that's where I usually hand them off 

In Tower 2011, I handover as soon as the Successful Takeoff is received

In Tower 3D, I include the handover as part of the Cleared to TakeOff, "Callsign XXX Cleared for takeoff, Upon reaching altitude one thousand contact Departure"
You may find this useful for busier airports

[Jbuddtv]

Is there a way to make inbound aircraft sidestep to a different runaway

[EliGrim]

4 minutes ago, Jbuddtv said:

Is there a way to make inbound aircraft sidestep to a different runaway

On final you can give the commands CHANGE TO RWY or ENTER FINAL RWY.

You can take a look at my Voice Commands - Reference Card if you like:

 

[Jbuddtv]

Ty I thought it was change runway to but I might of been giving it to early 

 

[EliGrim]

5 hours ago, Jbuddtv said:

Ty I thought it was change runway to but I might of been giving it to early

I think you can't give it early. I use enter final runway and it works without problems so far. In fact, it is better to give the command early so that the plane doesn't turn around because it is already too close to the airport and has to re-enter its final.

[Jbuddtv]

Thanks I got it working with enter final runway xx

[DeltaVII]

On 9/18/2020 at 9:21 PM, crbascott said:

As you should. In real life they are handed off much much sooner.

@Jbuddtv Usually, at around 1.5 miles from the airport, according to this old documentary (which, by the way, insults the 757 as "climbing sluggishly for the first few miles").

 

18 hours ago, EliGrim said:

I think you can't give it early. I use enter final runway and it works without problems so far. In fact, it is better to give the command early so that the plane doesn't turn around because it is already too close to the airport and has to re-enter its final.

Best practice with Tower!3D is waiting until the following flight calls tower (that way, if you have other traffic to the runway you want to switch the aircraft over to, or you want to depart traffic from the runway you're transferring the aircraft from, you can build a big enough gap, instead of probably dealing with two arrivals just twenty seconds or one minute apart (if the schedule shows two incoming flights at the same minute).

If you have crossing arrival runways, don't switch them over, because you might end up with two flights trying to land at the same time.

[Ron C]

I couldn’t agree more with all that @DeltaVII posted.  I usually don’t change the arrival runway except at the airports with parallel arrival runways on both sides of the airport which in my case is LAX, DFW and PHX.  I’ll do that (when I can) to put the arrivals on the same side of the airport as their terminal gates.  This saves a lot of extra taxiing and ground congestion getting the aircraft from the landing runway across the airfield to its gate.  I’ve found (at least in my case) that in order to ensure adequate runway landing separation that with most commercial jets in T!3DP you will need to ensure about 5 to 4 miles final approach course separation in front of the next aircraft that will be landing on the same runway that you are changing your arrival to land on.  Also, keep in mind you will need more in trail final approach separation if the aircraft you switching arriving runways is a slow mover (especially if its Boutique Air, lol).  Hopefully the next Tower XX will include some kind of controller initiated aircraft final approach speed adjustments mechanism for arriving aircraft (like in TRACON 2012).

[crbascott]

21 minutes ago, Ron C said:

I usually don’t change the arrival runway except at the airports with parallel arrival runways on both sides of the airport which in my case is LAX, DFW and PHX.  I’ll do that (when I can) to put the arrivals on the same side of the airport as their terminal gates. 

In the case of all three of the airports you mentioned, in real life during normal (non-Covid19 and non-construction) times the origination point (direction of arrival) has more to do with the actual arrival runway. There's just too much air congestion to allow for the criss-crossing of planes from one side of the airport to the other.

30 minutes ago, Ron C said:

 Hopefully the next Tower XX will include some kind of controller initiated aircraft final approach speed adjustments mechanism for arriving aircraft (like in TRACON 2012).

Tracon!2012 has this feature because it is much more often the job of the approach controller. However, if the next version still has tower controllers managing traffic 20 miles out (hopefully not) then speed management is definitely needed. 

[Ron C]

19 hours ago, crbascott said:

In the case of all three of the airports you mentioned, in real life during normal (non-Covid19 and non-construction) times the origination point (direction of arrival) has more to do with the actual arrival runway. There's just too much air congestion to allow for the criss-crossing of planes from one side of the airport to the other.

I knew that and do understand (that's the way I handled LAX arrivals in TRACON!2012).  However, those airports also have at least two ground controllers, two tower (local) controllers, assistants and supervisors to handle the traffic that I have to try and handle by myself; so any break I can give myself I tend to take.  Also, I believe that departures from DFW and LAX tend to depart on the runway that somewhat fits their destination and/or SID (e.g., at LAX some AAL, UAL, and SKW departing Runway 24L and some SWA, DAL departing on runway 25R).  I do this for both LAX and DFW (I have prepared lists of specific destinations for each departing runway); therefore, I have a lot of mixed departure and arrival cross airdrome taxiing at these airports (that’s why for me a “give way to” command would be very beneficial).  This can also make ground control very interesting especially since you are not just automatically taxiing every aircraft to the runway nearest their gate (e.g. all LAX south terminal, GA and cargo departures always taxiing to Runway 25R, etc.).  However, the destination lists I've made are not based on any specific sources just mainly on my best guesses and observations.

19 hours ago, crbascott said:

Tracon!2012 has this feature because it is much more often the job of the approach controller. However, if the next version still has tower controllers managing traffic 20 miles out (hopefully not) then speed management is definitely needed.

Totally agree.  I’m an ex-military controller with both control tower and radar approach control experience, so I know what you are talking about (howbeit a long time ago now).  Much of my ATC experience was at Air Force bases with single runways which depended heavily on the approach controllers ensuring that adequate final approach course separation between arriving IFR aircraft was maintained until they crossed the runway’s landing threshold.  One major difference though was that the IFR instrument approach arrivals remained on the approach controller’s frequency until after they landed; the tower’s landing clearance was passed directly to the final approach controller who relayed it to the pilot.  However, the VFR arrivals and aircraft remaining in the VFR pattern were controlled and sequenced (with the IFR arrivals) solely by the tower.  I also have noticed that it appears that FeelThere, may have helped a little with arrival spacing at some airports (LAX and DFW in my case) which is greatly appreciated.  Now they need to get the departures to take-off faster once cleared for take-off (I know hopefully Tower XX).

[crbascott]

21 minutes ago, Ron C said:

However, those airports also have at least two ground controllers, two tower (local) controllers, assistants and supervisors to handle the traffic that I have to try and handle by myself;

Very good point - my main wish is for realism but obviously that's not possible as a single player. That's why I moved to multiplayer but even that doesn't satisfy my realism thirst especially at larger airports. We'll see what the next version brings us (more positions, AI controllers, etc. ... who knows).. 

24 minutes ago, Ron C said:

I also have noticed that it appears that FeelThere, may have helped a little with arrival spacing at some airports (LAX and DFW in my case) which is greatly appreciated. 

There's a built-in 5nm mile separation at the 20+ nm mark regardless of lead/following plane types - which in reality can be too much or too little. 

34 minutes ago, Ron C said:

Now they need to get the departures to take-off faster once cleared for take-off (I know hopefully Tower XX).

Yep, the planes in this version definitely like to take their time on the runways - both takeoff and landing.

[Ron C]

21 hours ago, crbascott said:

There's a built-in 5nm mile separation at the 20+ nm mark regardless of lead/following plane types - which in reality can be too much or too little.

I knew about the 5 mile separation at the 20 mile range.  What I was referring to was that it appears for the most part that when I use multiple parallel landing runways that are on both sides of the airport (e.g., LAX Runways 24R and 25L; DFW Runways 18R, 17C and 17L; and PHX Runways 25R and 26), the game normally doesn't put the next arriving faster aircraft on the same landing runway as an immediately preceding slow mover even if both of their gates are on the same side of the airport.  This then creates more than 5 miles of initial in trail separation between the slow mover and the next in trail arrival to that runway.  I don’t know if this is by design (if so, good job) or just coincidence (then there are a lot of them in my case, which is also good).  However, at PHL when I only designate one of the parallel runways for arrivals, I do get a fast mover 5 miles behind a slow mover; the game doesn’t differentiate between the two (thank goodness I have the other parallel runway to bail me out since I have no aircraft speed adjustment options available).

21 hours ago, crbascott said:

Yep, the planes in this version definitely like to take their time on the runways - both takeoff and landing.

Adamantly agree with you about getting the planes off the runway faster.  I believe that by default the arriving planes need to keep their landing roll-out speed up until their default or controller designated exit.