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KPHL: Crash between landing and waiting aircraft


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Playing a game this afternoon I experienced an unplanned runway incursion from DAL1400. Having been instructed to taxi to 9L at T, and to line up and wait behind the next landing aircraft, it started to roll out onto the runway before the arriving DAL194 had cleared taxiway T. Consequently there was a significant points penalty applied despite appropriate instruction to the departing aircraft.

I enclose the output_log which captures events and would be grateful of your response. I experienced a similar issue in a previous game at CDG but do not have the output_log for that wherein the departing aircraft had been instructed to line up and wait behind the next landing aircraft but it too started rolling out onto the runway before the arriving aircraft had cleared the respective taxiway. In both instances the departing aircraft was taking off from partway down the runway which perhaps could be the source of the problem.

Many thanks in anticipation of your assistance.

output_log.txt

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A Plane with command: LINE UP AND WAIT BEHIND NEXT LANDING AIRCRAFT, will start rolling onto the runway the moment the landing plane goes to STATE_LAND. 

If you look down, 194 went to STATE_LAND at 27:04, and that is actually just before he touches down (there is a moment just for touching down where the option Go Around is no longer available). 8 seconds later 1400 starts rolling, and because there is almost no runup area to runway, 1400 is on the runway before 194 reaches Tango, probably just clipped the nose?

Quote

 

17:21:24 * DAL194 => ADD HISTORY: DAL194: RUNWAY 9L CLEARED TO LAND DAL194

17:21:33 * DAL194 => ADD HISTORY: DAL194: VACATE RUNWAY LEFT ONTO TAXIWAY N DAL194

17:24:03 * DAL1400 => ADD HISTORY: DAL1400: RUNWAY 9L AT T VIA J T DAL1400

17:25:55 * DAL1400 => ADD HISTORY: DAL1400: RUNWAY 9L LINE UP AND WAIT BEHIND NEXT LANDING AIRCRAFT DAL1400

17:27:04 alt: 99 takeoff: False/False/-2 OWNER_TOWER r: 9L * DAL194 => STATE CHANGE from STATE_INCOMING to STATE_LAND

17:27:12 alt: 0 takeoff: False/False/-2 OWNER_TOWER r: 9L * DAL194 => Landing cnt on runway: 9L    cnt: 10
17:27:12 alt: 0 takeoff: False/False/9 OWNER_GROUND r: 9L * DAL1400 => stop gate at: (-1765.6, 1826.4, 0.0)   takeoffgate: (-1765.6, 1826.4, 0.0)
17:27:12 alt: 0 takeoff: False/False/9 OWNER_GROUND r: 9L * DAL1400 => Activate lineup from: 9   runwaycnt: 10

17:27:23 * DAL194 => ADD HISTORY: Crash DAL194 - DAL1400. -1000 pts

 

 

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In reality this command is not permissible at FAA facilities like KPHL and I doubt intersection departures at T are normal operating procedure. Nevertheless, this is a game and the command does exist (and is allowed outside the U.S.) so people like to use it. However, as the thread above indicates the command really shouldn't be used when doing intersection departures. 

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Thanks for your replies.

Like you say, it’s there and you make use of it. All my departures this game were 9L@T and this was the only occurrence of the issue. I usually play KPHL starting at 06:00 if I am playing this airport and use 9R, 9L and 9L@T for departures at the same time to make aircraft movements more efficient, mixing up departure vectors etc to squeeze departures together. I appreciate - game behaviour, not real life. Even with arriving aircraft to contend with I have never experienced this issue before at KPHL.

The contact was full on; DAL194 was well onto the runway. Is it feasible for me to change the behaviour of the game in this regard to facilitate intersection departures in this manner? Is there an intention to alter the game engine mechanics to facilitate this? Or am I better off getting into the habit of having the departing aircraft taxi all the way to 9L or 9L@K5?

Thanks again.

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34 minutes ago, GC-ATC said:

Is it feasible for me to change the behaviour of the game in this regard to facilitate intersection departures in this manner? Is there an intention to alter the game engine mechanics to facilitate this? Or am I better off getting into the habit of having the departing aircraft taxi all the way to 9L or 9L@K5?

No. The game was released in 2017 (Pro version) and FeelThere stopped providing game engine updates in early 2018. Bottom line, you'll have to change because the game won't.

Although this is irrelevant, in reality in east flow 9L would only be used for departures and 9R for arrivals. 

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2 hours ago, crbascott said:

In reality this command is not permissible at FAA facilities like KPHL and I doubt intersection departures at T are normal operating procedure. Nevertheless, this is a game and the command does exist (and is allowed outside the U.S.) so people like to use it. However, as the thread above indicates the command really shouldn't be used when doing intersection departures. 

Or for full length runway departures as well.  As a previous controller the "line up and wait behind next landing aircraft" command has bugged me since I first saw it (therefore, for realism sake, I don't use it).  In ATC you usually don't use that many conditional commands (can get you into trouble).  Below is a quote from the Federal Aviation Administration Handbook (FAAH) 7110.65Y; which provides mandatory guidance/procedures for ATC that falls under the FAA’s jurisdiction (includes US military ATC and aircraft).  We called it the "Controller's Bible".  It is available on line for free in PDF format at https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7110.65Y_Basic_w_Chg_1_1-30-20.pdf if anyone is interested in seeing all the rules, complexities, separations and phraseologies that make up real-world FAA ATC (and maybe even try to apply some of them in the simulation, at least as much as the game's limitations will allow).

FAAH 7110.65Y Chapter 3, Paragraph 9 partial quote:

3−9−4. LINE UP AND WAIT (LUAW)

 a. The intent of LUAW is to position aircraft for an imminent departure. Authorize an aircraft to line up and wait, except as restricted in subpara g, when takeoff clearances cannot be issued because of traffic. Issue traffic information to any aircraft so authorized. Traffic information may be omitted when the traffic is another aircraft which has landed on or is taking off the runway and is clearly visible to the holding aircraft. Do not use conditional phrases such as “behind landing traffic” or “after the departing aircraft” (I added the red text for emphasis).

 b. First state the runway number followed by the line up and wait clearance.

PHRASEOLOGY−
RUNWAY (number), LINE UP AND WAIT.

 NOTE−
When using LUAW, an imminent departure is one that will not be delayed beyond the time that is required to ensure a safe operation. An aircraft should not be in LUAW status for more than 90 seconds without additional instructions.

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1 hour ago, Ron C said:

PHRASEOLOGY−
RUNWAY (number), LINE UP AND WAIT.

 NOTE−
When using LUAW, an imminent departure is one that will not be delayed beyond the time that is required to ensure a safe operation. An aircraft should not be in LUAW status for more than 90 seconds without additional instructions.

That is pretty much what I am using, feels more sequential
There are occasions where the Line Up And Wait command is issued, and it is obvious Cleared For Takeoff will not be received for some time on a single departures runway as there are two or more aircraft in front!

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2 hours ago, Ron C said:

Or for full length runway departures as well.  

Only if you are looking to play realistically at FAA managed airports. This command is ICAO approved and used in real life outside the U.S. This was discussed in the 3 year old thread that I linked above along with the same excerpt from the FAA policy.  

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54 minutes ago, MJKERR said:

There are occasions where the Line Up And Wait command is issued, and it is obvious Cleared For Takeoff will not be received for some time on a single departures runway as there are two or more aircraft in front!

Are you saying you somehow issue LUAW when there are two or more aircraft in front? I'm confused by the scenario you are describing.

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7 hours ago, crbascott said:

Are you saying you somehow issue LUAW when there are two or more aircraft in front? I'm confused by the scenario you are describing.

Yes, this practice occurs at London Heathrow, usually up to three aircraft sitting on the runway waiting for Clear For Takeoff 
Now that I have Tower 2011 EGLL working I am able to recreate this
I can have up to four aircraft on runway 27L or 27R all with Line Up And Wait

I have also done this with Tower 3D OMDB a few times, but the limit appears to be three aircraft

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1 hour ago, MJKERR said:

Yes, this practice occurs at London Heathrow, usually up to three aircraft sitting on the runway waiting for Clear For Takeoff 

Interesting, this is not allowed by the FAA. From the same policy that @Ron C quoted above:

3-9-4-f-4. Only one aircraft at a time is permitted to line up and wait on the same runway.

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5 hours ago, crbascott said:

Interesting, this is not allowed by the FAA. From the same policy that @Ron C quoted above:

3-9-4-f-4. Only one aircraft at a time is permitted to line up and wait on the same runway.

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP 797 Flight Information Service Officer Manual 21_2 28 May 2015.pdf
CAA has a similar requirement
8.82 Only one departing aircraft should be holding on the runway awaiting a landed
aircraft, or traffic crossing the runway, to vacate

At London Heathrow this would rarely apply for departures on runway 09L / 27R, as there is no traffic crossing, and the runway is usually used exclusively for departures
However this does explain why I have only ever seen one aircraft lined up on runway 09R / 27L, as traffic can cross (runway 09L / 27R arrival to Terminal 4 or Cargo)

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Basically it's used everywhere except the USA, just like the metric system 😛

AIP 5.16.6, 2, conditional clearances, c. "(condition) LINE UP [RUNWAY (number)] (brief reiteration of condition)

ie. Behind next landing aircraft line up and wait behind

 

 

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18 hours ago, crbascott said:

Only if you are looking to play realistically at FAA managed airports. This command is ICAO approved and used in real life outside the U.S. This was discussed in the 3 year old thread that I linked above along with the same excerpt from the FAA policy.

I guess I didn’t research as thoroughly as I could have, so I missed your 2017 post on this subject.  My initial post was meant to focus on the “line up and wait behind next landing aircraft" command which was the main issue at the start of this thread.  I also wanted to mention FAAH 7110.65 (the “Y” suffix reflects the most current revision which are ordered alphabetically) as I thought it might be a helpful reference source or tool for U.S. ATC for those who may be interested (it covers both tower and radar procedures).  Currently, I only have U.S. T!3DP airports so my emphasis has been on U.S. ATC procedures (which is the ATC I was involved with for most of my controlling career) that had to adhere to FAAH 7110.65.  I admit I’m not the most knowledgeable about outside the U.S. ATC or ICAO procedures; however, if I do get a non-U.S. airport I will brush up on ICAO procedures.

11 hours ago, MJKERR said:

I have also done this with Tower 3D OMDB a few times, but the limit appears to be three aircraft

I’m curious how you were able to get more than one LUAW plane to line up on the same runway at the same time in T!3DP.  In my experience I’ve found I can’t do that when clearing another plane to LUAW with a LUAW airplane already holding on the same runway for takeoff.  This situation, at least in my case, produces a “crash” when the second LUAW aircraft runs into the first one holding on the runway still awaiting its takeoff clearance; however, once it gets"...Cleared for Takeoff" there is no problem, even it takes a few seconds for the plane to start its takeoff roll.  Even though I only use one LUAW at a time, I found this out the hard way when I got real busy and got the multiple aircraft waiting for departure ADIRS ID tags confused.

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3 minutes ago, Ron C said:

I’m curious how you were able to get more than one LUAW plane to line up on the same runway at the same time in T!3DP.  In my experience I’ve found I can’t do that when clearing another plane to LUAW with a LUAW airplane already holding on the same runway for takeoff.

Different intersections. No limit to the number of intersections that can be used, as long are there is enough runway left for takeoff. Tested it at KLAX with aircraft on 27R, 27R@F, 27R@J, 27R@B3, 27R@G, 27R@B4, 27R@B5, 27R@B6, 27R@M, 27R@N, 27R@P, 27R@T. 27R@U was a bit short 🙂

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9 hours ago, Ron C said:

how you were able to get more than one LUAW plane to line up on the same runway at the same time in T!3DP. 

Departures from Runway 30R
I send Terminal 2 aircraft to N8, one Line Up and Wait (first for Take Off)
Alternatively aircraft to M12A 
All other aircraft to M13, M14A and M15A, second Line Up and Wait (M13) and third Line Up and Wait (M15A)
Alternatively aircraft to N8A, N10 and N12
The above works best with B737 / A320, then B777, then A380
I only use it when all three arrive at the same time or are starting to stack

I have not tested, but should also be possible to use N6 and M9

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16 hours ago, MJKERR said:
At London Heathrow this would rarely apply for departures on runway 09L / 27R, as there is no traffic crossing, and the runway is usually used exclusively for departures

Not true. London Heathrow switches runways at 1500 each day.

214CD946-3C73-4E01-9131-2CCFE93BD207.png

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27 minutes ago, winsaudi said:

Not true. London Heathrow switches runways at 1500 each day

Not sure what is not true, as there is no quote to look at

I know the real airport switches twice per day (sometimes more)
I have seen the 14:00 / 15:00 switch, and then a few hours later another due to change in wind direction
It is not possible to perform this in-game

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17 hours ago, WildCard said:

Different intersections. No limit to the number of intersections that can be used, as long are there is enough runway left for takeoff. Tested it at KLAX with aircraft on 27R, 27R@F, 27R@J, 27R@B3, 27R@G, 27R@B4, 27R@B5, 27R@B6, 27R@M, 27R@N, 27R@P, 27R@T. 27R@U was a bit short 🙂

Thank you for your testing efforts in trying to help me understand.  However, I already understood that would work (and assume you meant 25R).  I was referring to simultaneous LUAWs at the same intersection or end of the same runway (which I thought @MJKERR was doing at OMDB and what the Amsterdam video clip depicted).  Did you test issuing two simultaneous LUAWs at end of 25R and/or 24L and not clearing the first plane for take-off before the second LUAW airplane ran into it?

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1 hour ago, Ron C said:

Thank you for your testing efforts in trying to help me understand.  However, I already understood that would work (and assume you meant 25R).  I was referring to simultaneous LUAWs at the same intersection or end of the same runway (which I thought @MJKERR was doing at OMDB and what the Amsterdam video clip depicted).  Did you test issuing two simultaneous LUAWs at end of 25R and/or 24L and not clearing the first plane for take-off before the second LUAW airplane ran into it?

I doubt the video depicted a LUAW at the same intersection unless the first plane was told to move forward (which might require a takeoff reconfiguration). 

Issuing simultaneous LUAW at the same intersection and not clearing the first plane for takeoff will definitely result in a crash. Nothing really to test. 

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