KLAX - Real Traffic date = preparing for the next version of Tower

[MJKERR]

In Tower 3D I made a few tests on KLAX some time ago, but as I do not have the Real Colour pack I gave in
Ironically I still require the Real Colour pack to swap over some of the EGLL flights and correct them

I have now watched a few live videos and realise where I was going wrong

I now plan to create a summer 2018 or 2019 timetable
However, when (roughly) is the Real Traffic file from?

I have sorted my spreadsheet into each airline, I can then search the flight numbers

I suspect this will be one of the first airports released in the next version of Tower, so nothing like planning in advance

As an aside
The USD = GBP exchange rate is ridiculously low now, it is almost as low as what I paid with the normal 25% discount

[crbascott]

In doing a forum search, I found the post below regarding the release of RT for T!3D. I would imagine the schedule for KLAX would have been put together a few months prior. 

 

[MJKERR]

Summer 2016 it is then

[MJKERR]

Purchased Real Colour today (which also means I can add some options to EGLL and OMDB)

What a difference to this testing
It does help there are two providers on youTube so I could revise my operations to better match reality
I was not aware of how this airport operated (24R / 25L arrivals)

Sadly the Real Traffic file appears to be quite out of date, with Virgin America which is now Alaska Airlines

There does also appear to be an issue which affects some aircraft where they are lower then expected and lose their wheels!
I took screenshots of a Delta B763, but it was not affected, however as I now have Real Colour I will create a new topic specific to this

Again, looking to create a late Summer 2018 / 2019 timetable

[MJKERR]

Furthermore, one thing I have noticed is that incoming aircraft appear to be using the most appropriate (nearest) runway to their terminal
There have been a few exceptions, or is this just luck?

[crbascott]

33 minutes ago, MJKERR said:

There have been a few exceptions, or is this just luck?

What one calls luck, another may call a lack of realism. In reality with the amount of traffic KLAX gets, arrival runway will depend more on direction of flight versus parking location.

[MJKERR]

On 10/5/2021 at 1:51 PM, MJKERR said:

Summer 2016 it is then

I am not so sure the Real Traffic schedule is from Summer 2016
I have quite a few liveries which are included the Real Colours, but no actual flights!

I have added the following line to my terminals file :
// No assigned Terminal - Flights to be added: AUA,CFG,CRK,CSC,CXA,ENY,KAL,LOT,MXJ,NRS,ROU,RPA,SVA,VIV

[hexzed]

Klax RC has been updated since it was originally released

[MJKERR]

23 hours ago, hexzed said:

Klax RC has been updated since it was originally released

This should not have been an issue as I have both the Master List and one download of Real Colours
I have compared my EGLL Aircraft colours list, and there is no difference in the KLAX column
A slight oversight on my part as I had not included airlines that would not be expected at OMDB or EGLL

[MJKERR]

I now realise why there were so many posts about KLAX and some of the issues

I had not visually noticed that some of the B747 that were using Terminal TBIT, were actually Cargo aircraft!
Hence why there were so many questions
Ironically, later Real Colour packs have corrected this
However some still appear to be missing for use with KLAX (hopefully I have time to submit these to Pack 1 update) as they use the same ICAO code
As a result the allocations to TBIT were excessive, but splitting and removing the cargo (to use Terminal GA) has resolved some of the issue
Sadly as is common with many international aircraft diagrams, there are long layovers which result in a tow to and then from a remote stand

I also have several airlines that have a Real Colour for KLAX, but there are no flights within the Real Traffic file
Such as Aer Lingus (EI) and Norwegian Airlines (DI) 
I have not been able to figure out why

I have then moved on to Terminal 1, which is predominantly SouthWest Airlines (Real Colour also allows for Air Canada Rouge and VivaAerobus)
I noticed very early on three duplicate flights and two more that made no sense
Again, some of these flights would block the stand
Thankfully there is a great source in the USA (bts.gov) that provides very detailed arrival and departure information, it is shame the UK does not have something similar
Sadly the flights are listed by registration, no details of aircraft type, but this is easily resolved
However with a little time and cross referencing to the Real Colour Master List this was resolved
Again, due to stand blocking some flights had to be removed, but it was far less than the original Real Traffic file

As as aside, I swapped to Friday 05 July 2019 / Saturday 06 July 2019
Data before 2018 was patchy, so I went for Summer 2019

[hexzed]

6 hours ago, MJKERR said:

I also have several airlines that have a Real Colour for KLAX, but there are no flights within the Real Traffic file
Such as Aer Lingus (EI) and Norwegian Airlines (DI) 
I have not been able to figure out why

As I said above, the RC was updated after the original schedule and RC was released

[MJKERR]

Can someone please help explain KLAX operations
I have watched the two main YouTube live providers, and even now I am surprised as to what is permitted
I have attempted to replicate this, within the program limits, and it is quite close

Runway 25L / 24R operations
Have I got the following right, and what needs to change?

Runways 24L / 24R -
SouthWest flights line up at 24L, taxi via D9 (otherwise they cut in front of already queued aircraft)
Delta, AeroMexica also line up at 24L

As an aircraft arrives on 24R the aircraft lined up for departure on 24L is given clearance to depart
My main concern (in reality) is the aircraft has to abort the landing, as the aircraft are very close together (we really do not have anything like this in the UK)

Runway 25L / 25R -
American and United flights line up on 25R (I use taxiway B)
Cargo flights line up on 25L
There is then about a gap of about 90 seconds, and the process repeats on the runways 25L / 25R

That separation between departures makes sense
However it there can also be a similar overlap between an arrival on 25L and departure on 25R

There is obviously no issue between 25R departure / 24L departure and 25L departure / 24R arrival, due to the larger seperation

At EGLL the departure has to wait for (about) 10 seconds for the arrival before clearance is given
Dual operations are not permitted

Finally, when ATC give an aircraft clearance to takeoff from 24L / 25R, what is DELRAY?

[scoobflight]

3 hours ago, MJKERR said:

what is DELRAY?

http://www.airnav.com/airspace/fix/DLRAY

[crbascott]

1 hour ago, scoobflight said:

http://www.airnav.com/airspace/fix/DLRAY

The correct waypoint is DLREY. DLRAY is 200+ miles north of KLAX, it is the IF on the 28L ILS for KMOD. 

5 hours ago, MJKERR said:

Finally, when ATC give an aircraft clearance to takeoff from 24L / 25R, what is DELRAY?

DLREY is the first waypoint in RNAV departures from 24L. The first waypoint for 25R RNAV departures is DOCKR. For a flight that has filed a RNAV departure (LADJ4 for example), the typical takeoff clearance issued by the tower controller would be something like "American 123, RNAV to DLREY, Runway 24L, Cleared for takeoff”. Hopefully, additionally realistic takeoff clearances will be available in the next version.

[crbascott]

4 hours ago, MJKERR said:

Runway 25L / 24R operations
Have I got the following right, and what needs to change?

Runways 24L / 24R -
SouthWest flights line up at 24L, taxi via D9 (otherwise they cut in front of already queued aircraft)
Delta, AeroMexica also line up at 24L

As an aircraft arrives on 24R the aircraft lined up for departure on 24L is given clearance to depart
My main concern (in reality) is the aircraft has to abort the landing, as the aircraft are very close together (we really do not have anything like this in the UK)

Runway 25L / 25R -
American and United flights line up on 25R (I use taxiway B)
Cargo flights line up on 25L
There is then about a gap of about 90 seconds, and the process repeats on the runways 25L / 25R

If you are truly looking for realism, parking location is not the sole determining factor for departure runways. Runway use is quite often determined by the departure direction (north or south of the airport) - especially during times of normal to peak volume.

Published missed approach procedures and ATC professionalism are in place to address your concerns of 24R aborted landings.

4 hours ago, MJKERR said:

There is obviously no issue between 25R departure / 24L departure and 25L departure / 24R arrival, due to the larger seperation

In real life this is a major concern. For example, lets say you have a simultaneous departure of a Southwest flight to KHOU heading south off 24L and an United flight to KSEA heading north from 25R. Without proper traffic management control, these two departures could easily have a head on collision as their paths cross. To use the runways as above, one of the flights would need to be delayed until it's flight path was clear. Obviously, if the Southwest flight took off from 25L and the United flight from 24R there would not be a need for a delay or concern of a conflict.     

From a game play perspective, unfortunately, we typically handoff the plane to departure as soon as possible without any concerns or consequences of our actions. Again, hopefully the next version will attempt to make us be better controllers and not just video game-like tin pushers.

[scoobflight]

11 hours ago, crbascott said:

The correct waypoint is DLREY ...the first waypoint in RNAV departures from 24L. The first waypoint for 25R RNAV departures is DOCKR

[FeelThere_Vic]

Quote

From a game play perspective, unfortunately, we typically handoff the plane to departure as soon as possible without any concerns or consequences of our actions. Again, hopefully the next version will attempt to make us be better controllers and not just video game-like tin pushers.

Craig, this is pretty usual for busy airports to hand off the the planes to Departure asap. So if you want to be a better controller I think you can simulate this separation already by considering the destination and instructing the planes to take off from the runways "closer" to their destination airport. 

 

Vic

[crbascott]

2 hours ago, FeelThere_Vic said:

Craig, this is pretty usual for busy airports to hand off the the planes to Departure asap. So if you want to be a better controller I think you can simulate this separation already by considering the destination and instructing the planes to take off from the runways "closer" to their destination airport. 

 

Vic

Yes, I totally agree. I built several challenges on the Discord where using actual runways runways were a requirement.

I guess my main point was that after we hand planes off to departure there are no repercussions for our actions. For example, if in real life the tower controller(s) let the scenario above happen there would more than likely be severe consequences. I just get tired of seeing the YouTubers, Twitchers, and others brag about their skills and how they can handle so many departures when in reality they’ve driven their departure controllers (and more than likely passengers) into an early grave. 

[Pedantic G]

5 hours ago, crbascott said:

I just get tired of seeing the YouTubers, Twitchers, and others brag about their skills and how they can handle so many departures when in reality they’ve driven their departure controllers (and more than likely passengers) into an early grave.

Well put Craig. Crashing into each other on the ground and don't even get me started on correct take off timing and type separation (or am I too pedantic! 🤪)

G

[Salad]

Must agree with the comments above. When playing LAX I have all the northern departures leaving from the northern complex and the southern from the south. Makes a lot of work but the pattern does look great when they take off and naturally turn away from each other. Taxiways look good to when the flow is going.

[FeelThere_Vic]

You Folks are right, but one can alway abuse a simulator. There are countless flight sim videos online where they land upside down and brag how they survived it. I think it gets down to you; how seriously you take it. I think it's no matter how good or bad a sim is it really depends how seriously you take it. 

 

Vic

 

[EliGrim]

8 hours ago, FeelThere_Vic said:

There are countless flight sim videos online where they land upside down and brag how they survived it.

And that, in my opinion, is a good thing.

Having a simulator game so close to reality that it can be used as training simulator software is ideal. On the other hand, a game should always remain a game and allow the player creative freedom. Be it handling an unrealistic amount of flights "somehow" in T!3D or manipulating the physics in a flight simulator to replay an RB Air Race with a jumbo jet.

I am convinced that such freedoms are the hallmark of a good simulator game. Otherwise, you have a software that is fun for a few hours, but afterwards will not be touched by the majority of players anymore since the game is too "basic", or most players will not enjoy learning it "properly" if the game has too many rules that cannot be bypassed since it is too complex and exhausting to learn.

Another problem is that most simulator games centered around aviation are notoriously bad at teaching the player how to do it "right". This includes T!3D as well as all the flight simulator games. Often there are no or inadequate explanations, or there is a manual that is so complex and full of technical terms and procedures that 95% of the players barely understand half of it. (The latter is where I include myself.)

It will be an almost impossible task, but I hope that the new Tower version will allow playing it as close to the real thing as possible, while giving the player the freedoms of the current version and teaching those interested the "correct" way to use it. It remains to be seen what we will get.

[Salad]

Spot on Vic, that was just my preference in playing it. Every user is entitled to play it the way they want, after all it is for enjoyment not ATC school.

[iamblue91]

On 10/28/2021 at 3:53 AM, FeelThere_Vic said:

Craig, this is pretty usual for busy airports to hand off the the planes to Departure asap. So if you want to be a better controller I think you can simulate this separation already by considering the destination and instructing the planes to take off from the runways "closer" to their destination airport. 

 

Vic

Love this idea - will be trying this moving forward. I guess the caveat there is that SouthWest (for example) probably paid a pretty penny to get the terminal right beside the entrance to 24L? Would it make sense for a United flight going to EGLL go from essentially the start of 25R and taxi all the way to 25L? 

I wonder if this would be something that would be dealt with in their flight plan?

Not being picky / trying to start crap, genuinely curious on this one. The real answer if for me to just look at Flight Aware or FR24 and see what they did...

[crbascott]

14 minutes ago, iamblue91 said:

Love this idea - will be trying this moving forward. I guess the caveat there is that SouthWest (for example) probably paid a pretty penny to get the terminal right beside the entrance to 24L? Would it make sense for a United flight going to EGLL go from essentially the start of 25R and taxi all the way to 25L? 

I wonder if this would be something that would be dealt with in their flight plan?

Not being picky / trying to start crap, genuinely curious on this one. The real answer if for me to just look at Flight Aware or FR24 and see what they did...

Yep, again, this was the idea behind the challenges I created on the Discord server. I used FA and FR24 extensively when determining the actual runways used. In high traffic periods, you’ll definitely see SWA depart from 25R and UAL from 24L.

The departing runway definitely has an impact on flight plans. The departure procedure (SID) may not change but the waypoints flown up to the transition point could be quite different.