EGLL Runways 09L & 09R

[andredragt]

Taxiway S and A13 seem a little bit to long.. or the runways to short.

This basically means that lining up will take some time

[Pedantic G]

Seems to follow the actual runway length in Google pictures. I guess most flights take off at the intersections in line with the thresholds. Game seems to default to the intersection path in game play.

[andredragt]

Planes definately use full lenght (your pic has one lining up)

Interesting read :  Runway uses on Heathrow

[MJKERR]

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[andredragt]

I don't want to go in a whole discussion about where planes take of, I have been looking at Heathrow today where they are actually using 09R, and then mostly from N11.

Fact is, Planes in game can't do that, because they first have to roll to N8 to commence T/O

[Pedantic G]

1 hour ago, andredragt said:

Planes definately use full lenght (your pic has one lining up)

Interesting read :  Runway uses on Heathrow

I don't believe I said anywhere that they Never use full length!  But as you say let's not have a discussion. 

[crbascott]

2 hours ago, andredragt said:

I don't want to go in a whole discussion about where planes take of, I have been looking at Heathrow today where they are actually using 09R, and then mostly from N11.

Fact is, Planes in game can't do that, because they first have to roll to N8 to commence T/O

New airport, but same game engine. 🤷‍♂️

[Salad]

6 hours ago, andredragt said:

Planes definately use full lenght (your pic has one lining up)

Interesting read :  Runway uses on Heathrow

Great find andredragt, thanks for sharing. Good info on departure sequencing and wake turbulence categories.

[champs8507]

Think I may have found a bug too for 09's. Using 09R for departures I'm unable to tell aircraft to use N10/Y1 no matter what the aircraft type I get Negative back from the aircraft.

[Pedantic G]

3 hours ago, champs8507 said:

Think I may have found a bug too for 09's. Using 09R for departures I'm unable to tell aircraft to use N10/Y1 no matter what the aircraft type I get Negative back from the aircraft.

Think the issue here is that the start of Runway 09R  defaults to the N8 intersection and therefore it does not recognize N10 or Y1 as part of the Runway and hence you get the negative back if you say xxxx Runway 09R at N10 (or Y1) - just tried  it and I also get the negative. Believe this is linked into the comment andredragt raised in the starting point of the runway.

I have just tried to it using the following commands:

BAW456 : Runway 09R taxi via B, Y1 and S (or even ignore the S works) - It holds at Y1 as it should and then give the command to continue taxi etc or line up and wait/cleared for take off)

SAS1530 : Runway 09R taxi via A, N10 etc etc etc. Again holds on N10.

This seems to work fine.

Not sure if FT would do a SP to amend this as in theory they have started the Runway 09R at N8 which is where the bold lines for the runway start on the google picture

At least using the method i described above you can stack the three intersections I guess before giving the cleared for take off. As highlighted it's a bit of a long line up from Y1 but as LHR very rarely use landings and takeoff on the same runway except in busy early morning periods it shouldn't be an issue in game play if you keep your wits about you.

[DeltaVII]

I don't own EGLL, but one thing strikes me as odd: Both runways definitely have a displaced threshold, and I wonder why FT did not design it as such, especially when it was no problem to use a DT back in the early days of the game when KJFK came out (remember runways 22R and 31L)...

[crbascott]

1 hour ago, Pedantic G said:

As highlighted it's a bit of a long line up from Y1 but as LHR very rarely use landings and takeoff on the same runway except in busy early morning periods it shouldn't be an issue in game play if you keep your wits about you.

As @DeltaVII mentioned, FT did it for KJFK. And, you wouldn't be able to take off from KSAN if the displaced threshold were not implemented correctly. There's a reason for the displaced threshold and as such it should be implemented correctly - it definitely can be done. It would be sad if this iconic much anticipated airport became just another one riddled with workarounds. 

[WildCard]

I agree with @crbascott, the displaced threshold is part of the runway and all previous airports have included it as part of the runway. As a matter of fact, the internal format for the airport file has the ability to include the length of the displaced threshold as part of the runway information so that planes don't land on it.

Without having this done correctly, then it will be impossible to get planes to start their takeoff from the displaced threshold like they can do in real life. One of the reasons that displaced thresholds exist is to give planes taking off more runway length (TORA) for them to takeoff from.

[Pedantic G]

10 hours ago, WildCard said:

I agree with @crbascott, the displaced threshold is part of the runway and all previous airports have included it as part of the runway. As a matter of fact, the internal format for the airport file has the ability to include the length of the displaced threshold as part of the runway information so that planes don't land on it.

Without having this done correctly, then it will be impossible to get planes to start their takeoff from the displaced threshold like they can do in real life. One of the reasons that displaced thresholds exist is to give planes taking off more runway length (TORA) for them to takeoff from.

Daniel,

So, with your knowledge of the coding, and what is/is not possible in the game, in the LHR example above if FT changed this and put in the displaced threshold, and using 09R as the example, the starting point of the runway would be adjacent to the intersection of Y1/S (effectively eliminating the current small spur of S that leads to the current starting point of the runway). Therefore, when giving the command "Expect Runway 09R" the game would highlight the route to this new starting point at this intersection of Y1/S, or near as damn it, not at N8 as it does now but the landing point can be where it is now (which looks to be around between N8 and N7) which seems good for the roll off's the runways allowing for known crawling issues?

Similar for 09L at A13 as well I guess.

G 

[DeltaVII]

1 hour ago, WildCard said:

As a matter of fact, the internal format for the airport file has the ability to include the length of the displaced threshold as part of the runway information so that planes don't land on it.

One airport where that works perfectly is ... St. Thomas. Which makes the fact they didn't implement it in Heathrow even more puzzling when you realize it's one of the airports that the basic game comes with...

[andredragt]

More things I noticed, not sure if this is actually normal,

Look where the little speedbird is holding short, shouldn't he be a line closer...and then planes can actually pass behind him instead of blocking txw A

[Pedantic G]

5 hours ago, andredragt said:

More things I noticed, not sure if this is actually normal,

Look where the little speedbird is holding short, shouldn't he be a line closer...and then planes can actually pass behind him instead of blocking txw A

Did raise this during final testing but think this is an issue due to conflict in the runway exit dynamics (internal game stop point logic) vs the hold point onto the runway logic but will raise this to get them to look at this again if they wish . With such low traffic at the moment its difficult to see where they actually hold as most flights get immediate clearance! @andredragt- Can you raise this as a separate card and I can link the short cut to this to the Bug report please -

For info for those on the forum I will raise the following 3 issues on the internal FT Bug Report Board for LHR for review by the developer :

1. Tower/Ground speech feedback where some people hear "Detroit" as reported by  @cwalfy1- I personally have never heard Detroit but there is definitely some issue on the way it pronounces Heathrow (LOW IMPACT)

2. Runway 09L/09R Threshold issue as first reported by @andredragt and commented on by a plethora of others (MEDIUM IMPACT)

3. Alpha Taxiway Hold Point as just reported by @andredragt. (LOW IMPACT)

This does not mean that these will be fixed (not my decision) but at least they are raised!

G

[Mylius]

It appears the aircraft in-game in the screenshot above are holding at the CAT 3 holding points for 27L (N2E, N2W, N3) when in fact in real life they hold at the CAT 1 holding points a little closer to the runway (NB2E, NB2W, NB3).

[Lewisboy]

Just as a note regarding real-world airport operations. 

It's very rare for aircraft to use 9L for take off. Almost all operations on the 9's use 9L for arrivals and 9R for departures, and this is not usually switched during ops.

The default departure for aircraft on 9R would be from N11, with specific intersection departures at N10/N8 given to lighter/faster aircraft and for spacing. With that in mind, it is very common to see a row of A320/B737 lining up for N8 departure along taxiway A, with heavy aircraft using taxiway B for a full length.  

Glad to see this airport in the game, and look forward to trying it soon.

Separate note for @Pedantic G - the taxiway onto 9R at the end is N11 not Y1.... that would be a helpful change too if FT can manage it.  

 

[Pedantic G]

3 hours ago, Lewisboy said:

Separate note for @Pedantic G - the taxiway onto 9R at the end is N11 not Y1.... that would be a helpful change too if FT can manage it.  

Noted. Will add to the bug card on the runway threshold issue. 👍

[MJKERR]

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[WildCard]

On 12/15/2020 at 6:58 PM, Pedantic G said:

Daniel,

So, with your knowledge of the coding, and what is/is not possible in the game, in the LHR example above if FT changed this and put in the displaced threshold, and using 09R as the example, the starting point of the runway would be adjacent to the intersection of Y1/S (effectively eliminating the current small spur of S that leads to the current starting point of the runway). Therefore, when giving the command "Expect Runway 09R" the game would highlight the route to this new starting point at this intersection of Y1/S, or near as damn it, not at N8 as it does now but the landing point can be where it is now (which looks to be around between N8 and N7) which seems good for the roll off's the runways allowing for known crawling issues?

Similar for 09L at A13 as well I guess.

G 

Basically, yes.

I was trying to think of an easy example in a released airport when I saw this post... perfect. 🙂

On 12/15/2020 at 7:37 PM, DeltaVII said:

One airport where that works perfectly is ... St. Thomas. Which makes the fact they didn't implement it in Heathrow even more puzzling when you realize it's one of the airports that the basic game comes with...

 

[Pedantic G]

1 hour ago, MJKERR said:

All heavy except A380, N1
All heavy. N2E N2W
N3
N4 is optional, preferred for long hold for separation

What's that got to do with hold points? Was on about where they hold, not what type 

[WildCard]

Normally planes will hold at the Pattern A runway holding point when entering a runway or exiting a runway after landing

https://mediawiki.ivao.aero/index.php?title=Aerodrome_Marking_Signs#Runway_holding_point_pattern_A

unless the airport is experiencing CAT II or CAT III ILS weather conditions (this is not the same as CAT II/III aircraft type) then they stop at the Pattern B holding points for increased safety

https://mediawiki.ivao.aero/index.php?title=Aerodrome_Marking_Signs#Runway_holding_point_pattern_B

All of the airports addons that I've tested so far have the holding gate at the Pattern A marker, even tho the game basically ignores these for planes exiting the runway after landing.

[Pedantic G]

So @WildCard, in @andredragtspeedbird example above its holding at Pattern B ( atvthe runway ahead marker) not Pattern A (closer to the runway) as it should be to enter the runway?